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Why volume? Why a lot of watts?
Think about it. What is the most important part of the market for guitar amps? First I would say the occasional gigger, small venues, mostly practising at home. That person needs at the most 60/80 watts SS or 40 tube.
But what comes next? I'm pretty sure it's people like me. I won't gig for a long time, I started not so long ago, but I love gear. I am looking for tone.

I don't need volume!!!
What's the smallest tube amp you will find at an affordable price? 15 watts. If you want a heavy is tone with that, you have to crank up the volume until you ovedrive the output valves right (tell me if I'm wrong, I don't know much).
What use would even that be for me?
I can put a cleanboost in front of the amp, making the tubes overdrive quicker. Fair enough. It doesn't destroy the tone, it's a pedal (so it's cool ), but it does cost 100 quid more.
Furthermore why 15 watts?
That's loud enough to outvolume your drummer before he starts to retaliate (eh I know, I am one...) It's too loud for practise at your appartment without pissing off the neighbours, sisters, cats, pigeons, whatever. And it's not loud enough for small venue gigs (when non mic'ed).
Wouldn't manufacturers make enough profit out of a 5 watt, fully tube amp?
2 preamp valves, 2 output valves, et voila! L'amplificateur de reve.
Would it cost more than your average 30 watts SS amp with effects? I doubt. Would it piss off the neighours? Yes. But those who will know how to use it will know when it's used well. You've got two big shares of the segment here. Beginners and non gigers. You can already add recorders to there. A 5 watt tone machine? Hell yeah! I want.

How about 3 watts? Crank it up, you're a bit loud for room level but nothing too bad. And you have your output valves cranking out the distortion you were looking for. But then do you still have real tube tone (that's a genuine question, I don't really know about that).

How about do like Vox does on their AVT60 and 120 amps? A selecter that can switch between 5, 10, 15, etc... watts. With of course the volume needing to be higher and higher all the time to overdrive the output valves.

Most people probably will tell me, '15 watt is flexible enough if you push it, it's ok for room level and it will bring you metal tones' eh fair enough. But a 5 watter would too, would most likely cost cheaper (not talking boutique stuff here...) and this way be a godsend for those who don't need loudness.

How about a Fender pro junior with 5 watts only? Add in an EQ pedal, maybe a clean boost, a good overdrive and there ya go, tone box.
Just a small rant. Comments are welcome, there are most likely flaws in my points. Ah also, I have never played a tube amp less loud than 40 watts. Actually the only tube amp I played was a Marshall DSL401 and it was WAYYYYYY too loud when I finally got the gain I wanted. Distorsion was weak at room level.

I agree with you on most cases. Just a couple jests I have to make:
-Remember that volume increases by just 3dB when you double wattage. So a 5 watt amp would still probably be too loud for an apartment.
-ZVex makes the Nano Head, which is a watt of power (maybe less--I don't remember) that overdrives at relatively low volumes (compared to other tube heads). The only downside is that you need a cab, and using a 4x12 would defeat the purpose. You'd want like a single 8quot; or 10quot; speaker

For tube amps, I don't pay much attention to the actual wattage rating, I go by the number of power tubes, 2 or 4. I also go by the number of speakers, because the more you have, the more air you'll move.

Why more watts? Besides the fact that different bands or styles of music require different volume levels, you've got to realize that amps with 4 power tubes have more low end tightness and girth. The cleaner you play, the louder the amp seems. So, if you play a cleaner style of music, a 40W amp will punch through the mix nicely.

Let's suppose you play heavier music with a lot of gain and a heavy handed drummer.
The preamp gain will make your amp seem smaller and lower in volume, if it's a 40W amp. That's where a 100W amp fits the bill better. Let's take a highgain scooped tone for nu-metal, for example....that tone is the whole reason Mesa even makes a 150W Triple Rectifier! That tone doesn't punch through the mix unless it's louder. If you hit the clean channel on that amp, at unison volume, you'd blow your eardrums out. That's a good example of how clean watts appear far louder than high gain watts......and hence the reason for high wattage amps. That, and young guys' testosterone levels, when buying new gear! hahahaha

If you actually look at it from a different perspective, it makes more sense to have more power than you need......

I use about 40 watts max to keep with my drummer, since my amp will push 186 watts, 40 watts is easier on the whole amp!

..simple enough

Jeff Seal

To me, tube amps don't even seem like an option in an apartment or household with noise restrictions. I use my Vox Valvetronix modeling head/2-12 for that, and it works out to be the best practice rig, especially since the tuner is built in.

In a rehearsal or gig situation, I prefer an amp that is right at the point where the power tubes kind of 'swell up' when I'm at an appropriate volume level. Normally, that's a 50w amp, although my 120W Bogner head sounds cranked at almost any volume level. I paid out the ass for that luxury though.

a 1/4 watt amp fed into the right speaker would be pretty loud. just about anything can be done, for a price.

germ

Oh god no, not ANOTHER quot;18 watts is more than enough for anyone, even though I have no farking Idea of what you use it forquot; Threads......(Not meant as an attack, pierre, it´s just what this is gonna turn in ).....anyonr got a bottle of Pepto on ´em?

Use the search function please, We just had the last war 2 weeks ago or so, and the last similar thread was started 2 days ago...I´m staying out of this from the beginning

It is rather simple, in my humble opinion.

More watts make the amp work easier. And a small amp may have trouble with clean headroom, at least with tube amps.

It is the same with Hi-Fi systems.

By the way, I use a Hughes amp; Kettner Tube 20 (20w) as a practice amp in my home, and that works just fine.

As with most tonally involved issues, there is no right and wrong. Just appropriate and inappropriate, based upon your situation.

What I'm ranting about is that I think there IS a market for such an amplifier, and that it's not exploited at all. Technology is there, the public wants to (to a certain extent). It's just not happening.

Sorry Zerberus, I really didn't realise there had been another like this. I made a thread asking about room level tube amp and it got into pretty much the same debate that's true, but this thread here is more of a 'let's see if there is indeed a market' experiment.

How many of us here WOULD go for a 2 watts all tube amp?
And yeah I heard of the zvex nano head. I really would consider it if only it weren't more expensive than any other 15 watt tube amps Why so much? I do hear it's a quality product though. And with an eq pedal and a single small speaker it could really be a keeper. But it's just too expensive

I might get a wee tube amp. Seems a decent idea, IF the quality is good... I may be wrong, but aren't higher wattage amps generally build with more TLC?


Originally Posted by Pierre....Sorry Zerberus, I really didn't realise there had been another like this. I made a thread asking about room level tube amp and it got into pretty much the same debate that's true, but this thread here is more of a 'let's see if there is indeed a market' experiment.

How many of us here WOULD go for a 2 watts all tube amp?
And yeah I heard of the zvex nano head. I really would consider it if only it weren't more expensive than any other 15 watt tube amps Why so much? I do hear it's a quality product though. And with an eq pedal and a single small speaker it could really be a keeper. But it's just too expensive

In the spirit in which the thread was intended: I would consider a 1-2W amp for recording purposes if it sounded good.....But I admit I prefer to take the same Rig I use live and stick a few mics in front of it


Originally Posted by ZerberusIn the spirit in which the thread was intended: I would consider a 1-2W amp for recording purposes if it sounded good.....But I admit I prefer to take the same Rig I use live and stick a few mics in front of it

In that same spirit, I have to agree with Zerb on this point.... I dont want an amp for home use, another for practice, and then another for gigging.... I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe which is rated at 40 watts with 112 and only weighs 40 or so pounds... It is small enough that I can even toss in my wife's pansy car.... Slightly off topic, I know but I am trying to drive a point home... At the house I play around 2-3 onstage, I play at 3 and a hairmore... The difference between the RELATIVE volumes is absolutely none... At home it is loud enough to jam, but I dont get the cops called, and onstage, it is loud enough to jam without having too much stage volume! I get an excellent clean Fender tone, in fact I put tubes with later breakup to capitalize on that... as such I use pedals to get anyother tones I seek.... I will say that even when we played an outdoor fest recently, I only cranked it to 4.... It seemed as though it needed that extra umph to make up for not having the resonant chamber that is a room....

Now, since my amp goes to 12, (It's like 10, only 2 louder - in a Nigel accent) you probably wonder why I would need the other 8 levels... That is simple, the more you push a tube amp (and even some tube modellers), the more it saturates the tube... It isnt like most Solid State amps where you get the same tones at 1 that you will get at 12.... As such, I need a 40 watt amp so that I can play it at 2-4 (depending on situation), and still get both the tones I desire, and the volume I need....

To reinforce, if I bought a Blues Junior rated at 15 watts, I could jam at the house using reasonable volumes and get a good clean tone... But at practice, in order to match the volume of Bam-Bam, I would have to run it pretty high on the volume knob... This increase tube saturation which decreases my clean volume... SO we would have to mic during practice.... Onstage, we mic anyway, but we dont rely on monitors for our stage volume.... We usually have a carefully balanced stage consisting of the amps matching the drummer and other members, and the monitors feed vocals and a SMALL amount of the mix onstage to help reduce the latency from room reverb.... My amp would have to be dimed to realy cut through, and that would most likely eliminate my cleans.....

I hope this helped some, and I suggest you read on the following link.... I am not trying to cram a Hot Rod down your throat, but this is an informative page about tube amps, it just happens to be called the Unoffical Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Owner's Guide......There is a wealth of information on the components and functionality of tube amps in general! Hope this helps.....

from : localhost/studentweb.eku.edu/justin_holton/

BTW, since my recent relocation, I am not a gigging musician any longer... I am currently back in college, and teaching music lessons from my home... Occasionally, I will have frineds over to jam, but I still don't go over 3 in my home without knocking the pics off the wall.... I love my Hot Rod Deluxe, and wouldn't trade it in for anything of comparable value... Now, if you have a Mesa/Boogie Lone Star Special (Class A 30 Watt 112 Combo) you wanna trade for my HRDx, PM me and I will even cover shipping for each amp! Seriously though, I like knowing that I have a balance of room freindly volumes and power in reserve should I need it... As far as the market you are describing, I believe there are plenty of low-watt amps available that are flexible enough to do what you need in the confines of an appartment... If it is earlier break-up you seek, then get hotter tubes... Check out that HRDx page, and it will go into the details of how to variously configure your amp for your needs....


Originally Posted by PierreWhat I'm ranting about is that I think there IS a market for such an amplifier, and that it's not exploited at all. Technology is there, the public wants to (to a certain extent). It's just not happening.(

I've been saying the same thing, sort of. It's not that amps in that size don't exist, it's just taht they seem to be polarized at both ends of the quality spectrum - either high-end boutique or cheapo.

I wish there was a Marshall 18 watter similar in design/construction/marketing philosophy to the Fender reissue Deluxe, mass-produced to keep the price reasonable, but without all the bells and whistles of the JCM2000 line. Granted, to be successful, this amp would need more than a single volume and tone control. But I think a single-channel TMB 18 Watter could be a big seller in the $700 price range.

Other than that, there are a few low-power tube amps around the Peavey quot;Classicquot; line comes to mind, the tweed Carvins, some Crates. If I wasn't a DIYer , I would REALLY want to check out the Reverend Goblin. That seems like a nice versatile-but-simple amp with pretty much everything you need.

My personal amp is my DIY blue mutant quot;13-Watterquot; (see link in signature). I'm head-over-heels for this amp, but with 1 Volume amp; 1 Tone, it's not very versatile. 13 watts is also way too loud for practicing at home, a problem I've mostly solved with a Weber Mini MASS. I'm planning a low-wattage version of this same amp with 6AK6 tubes in the output stage, good for 3 or 4 watts. But that's not viable for a commercially-produced amp, since 6AK6's are not in production.

Yeah, my next acquisition will be an 18 watt 6V6 combo. I don't really crank up amps at home, and 18 watts is perfect for mic'd stage volumes.

Zerb I get your point. The market I'm talking about is the non gigger one. Why would we need a 60 watter that we can't crank up to record?

Some posts I made in another thread about the market for low power tube amps:
Why Peters no longer builds 10W amps (part 1)
Why Peters no longer builds 10W amps (part 2)

I read it. It was interesting for sure. What's headroom...? Is it just how loud you can be before your output valves start distorting?
With technology nowadays, would it be extremely hard to make up an all tube, 2 watts amplifier for metal for instance? Let's say the output valves distort with the volume about halfway through, it would be just ok (maybe on the loud side though) for room practise...
I don't know much about this amp thing. But all of this seems illogical especially on the tube side. That thing by Peters to me implied that there is no research being made, just some occasional trials. Why doesn't Fender or Marshall tell us more about it? Could we contact them? Maybe they did publish stuff about this and I can't find it, I don't claim to be all knowledgable, just extremely curious.
Furthermore I started management studies so good market research is very important for me, and I do see a market for that... :P

I think the problem is that alot of guitarists, especially younger guitarists, confuse thier guitar/amp with thier penis. Or at the very least, it's all jumbled together in some confused way. They'll learn...but maybe not until they've lost thier hearing.