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I may sound stupid asking this, but what i want to know is what exactly defines the vintage PAF sound? I ask this because in reading the post about who here likes the Dimarzio stuff. One member says that even Duncans high output pick ups sound similar basically. I don't understand this as i thout it was the low output and ultra scooped mids that distinguishes vintags buckers from modern ones. I hva heard a few duncans lately and with the sh-5 i can see it but the sh-6 seems to have a lot more guts than a 59 which is what i took out of my blues bird becuase i wanted a heavier sound and have a hollow body that would benefit from it. Is it the high end presence. I see that some Dimarzios use ceramic magnets like the sh-6 which is generally supposed to render an aggresive top end. is it because many dimazios have more bass and mids than high end. Just wondering guys thanks.

PAFs have slightly scooped mids.

DMZ has many pickups which have higher DC resistance which shows up in less treble and more mids and bass.

The paf sound comes from a pickup wound no hotter than about 8.2K. Old Gibson pafs vary alot but were originally made with an alnico 2 magnet and the Duncans that cover those variations are the Seth Lover, Pearly Gates and Antiquity. A2 pafs tend to have less bass, more mids and smoother treble than the A5 paf that the 59 is based on.

The 59 is based on the alnico 5 paf that Gibson switched to and used throughout the 60's. It has more bass, less mids and brighter treble. You'll hear that kind of paf if you listen to Disrali Gears by Cream and the alnico 2 paf if you listen to Fresh Cream or Clapton with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.

Lew


Originally Posted by LewguitarThe paf sound comes from a pickup wound no hotter than about 8.2K. Old Gibson pafs vary alot but were originally made with an alnico 2 magnet and the Duncans that cover those variations are the Seth Lover, Pearly Gates and Antiquity. A2 pafs tend to have less bass, more mids and smoother treble than the A5 paf that the 59 is based on.

The 59 is based on the alnico 5 paf that Gibson switched to and used throughout the 60's. It has more bass, less mids and brighter treble. You'll hear that kind of paf if you listen to Disrali Gears by Cream and the alnico 2 paf if you listen to Fresh Cream or Clapton with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.

Lew
I can see that. The 59 is my only reference with the PAF type sound and if you look at the book on the specs it is bass= 6 mid=3 high=8 so yeah it most definatly leans toward the trebly side. Now here is what i don't exactly undrestand. (grasshopper is willing hear How does the PAF sound relate to a pick up like the Duncan distortion? Is it because the most prominent frequency according to the chart is the high end with the mid being next. And if i am reading the other post right the difference between a modern vs a vintage sound is in the amount of high end and midrange? Is this correct wise old bull?? also when someone says a sound is more quot;openquot;, what exactly does quot;openquot; mean?


Originally Posted by johnI can see that. The 59 is my only reference with the PAF type sound and if you look at the book on the specs it is bass= 6 mid=3 high=8 so yeah it most definatly leans toward the trebly side. Now here is what i don't exactly undrestand. (grasshopper is willing hear How does the PAF sound relate to a pick up like the Duncan distortion? Is it because the most prominent frequency according to the chart is the high end with the mid being next. And if i am reading the other post right the difference between a modern vs a vintage sound is in the amount of high end and midrange? Is this correct wise old bull?? also when someone says a sound is more quot;openquot;, what exactly does quot;openquot; mean?

Generally, the more copper wrapped around the coils the louder and thicker the pickup sounds. Also, with more wire wrapped around the coils you'll tend to get more bass and mids and less upper harmonics to the treble. There are no paf pickups from the 50's or very early 60's wound as hot as the JB or Distortion. Those pickups have twice the DC Reisistance (16.6K) of a vintage Gibson paf (about 8.2K). The JB and Distortion are the same pickup, BTW, with the diff being the alnico 5 magnet in the JB and ceramic magnet in the Distortion. Lew


Originally Posted by LewguitarGenerally, the more copper wrapped around the coils the louder and thicker the pickup sounds. Also, with more wire wrapped around the coils you'll tend to get more bass and mids and less upper harmonics to the treble. There are no paf pickups from the 50's or very early 60's wound as hot as the JB or Distortion. Those pickups have twice the DC Reisistance (16.6K) of a vintage Gibson paf (about 8.2K). The JB and Distortion are the same pickup, BTW, with the diff being the alnico 5 magnet in the JB and ceramic magnet in the Distortion. Lew

I get that but minus the output difference what is the similalarity that some players hear between the 59 and the distortion. I know the output differences and know that can translate in more dynamics from the lower out put humbuckers of the 50s and 60s but what is the common denominator in the sounds of these two that people hear.

PAF's used every variety of Alnico (2,3,4,5) at one time or another. To me the quintessential PAF tone (the one I really like anyway) is the overwound (9.0 to 9.5k) variety that barks and honks but keeps the top end shimmer and sparkle. I played one in a friend's Historic once and it had that quality. I don't know if it was in the 9k range or not, but it sure sounded like it was.

I also saw Andy Summers at a club date with his '59 ES-335 and I assume it had PAF's in it. The bridge pickup sure had that same unmistakable bark/honk tone.

The Duncan models that come closest to my ear are the Seth Lover and the Custom Custom, especially if you put an Alnico 3 or 4 magnet in it.

But my Jon Moore 'bucker nails that tone. See my review under quot;New Medium Pickup Ideaquot; for more info.


Originally Posted by johnI get that but minus the output difference what is the similalarity that some players hear between the 59 and the distortion. I know the output differences and know that can translate in more dynamics from the lower out put humbuckers of the 50s and 60s but what is the common denominator in the sounds of these two that people hear.

I don't know how to answer that. I think there are commenalities in tone between all humbucking pickups that share the Gibson paf style side by side coil design because they are all based on Seth Lover's original 1955 design. That design alone tends to produce a certain sound and to make them all sound more similar to each other than differant from each other. Lew


Originally Posted by LewguitarI don't know how to answer that. I think there are commenalities in tone between all humbucking pickups that share the Gibson paf style side by side coil design because they are all based on Seth Lover's original 1955 design. That design alone tends to produce a certain sound and to make them all sound more similar to each other than differant from each other. LewEven Dimarzios in your opinion? sorry if i am getting on your nerves i really don't mean too. I know that so much is subjective. it amazes me that two people can hear some thing so different. some say that the distortion and the jb sound pafish and some say they dont. Thanks for your insight i appreciate it. God bless!!!

Keep in mind that the guy who said that the distortion and '59 sound the same is the same guy who started the ' pickups suck period' thread. I wouldn't put too much stock in what he says, especially considering I've never heard anyone else say that. However, SDs are generally more vintage sounding than Dimarzios or EMGs.

DiMarzio PAFs do not only have that name... Anyhow, there's more to a quot;PAF soundquot; than comparing frequency diagrams, e.g. the dynamics which means that it reacts to your attack and produces very different sounds then. Also the quot;bloomquot; isn't a property you could describe with less or more mids for example, because it depends on how the harmonic overtones are sustained and change after a pick attack, especially with chords or 3rd and 6th intervals.


Originally Posted by hans-jürgenDiMarzio PAFs do not only have that name... Anyhow, there's more to a quot;PAF soundquot; than comparing frequency diagrams, e.g. the dynamics which means that it reacts to your attack and produces very different sounds then. Also the quot;bloomquot; isn't a property you could describe with less or more mids for example, because it depends on how the harmonic overtones are sustained and change after a pick attack, especially with chords or 3rd and 6th intervals.

Yes Hans! You nailed it. I would also say dynamics and bloom and maybe DETAIL are what I hear in PAFs as opposed to higher outputs. The ultimate is a PAF through a Pickup booster for the best of both worlds!


Originally Posted by hans-jürgenDiMarzio PAFs do not only have that name... Anyhow, there's more to a quot;PAF soundquot; than comparing frequency diagrams, e.g. the dynamics which means that it reacts to your attack and produces very different sounds then. Also the quot;bloomquot; isn't a property you could describe with less or more mids for example, because it depends on how the harmonic overtones are sustained and change after a pick attack, especially with chords or 3rd and 6th intervals.

Cool!!! i understand what you are saying. I think that is what i preaty much thought. I was just kind of going wait a minute. How can you hear a PAF sound out of a high outout job like the sh-6. I can see based on the high frequency detail of the sh-6 why someone would say it sounds more vintage than maybe some other high output jobs out there, i just didn't quite hear the PAF sound. which is why i got one. I think vintage voice humbuckers sound nice but for the tone i am going for i needed more mids and more output. When i get the chance to get a quot;jazzquot; for my ibanez hollow body my 59 brige pick up has a new home.

Dont forget the amp plays a big role in the sound as well!!!! Alot of people believe medium output pickups are better then high output ones in terms of clarity and definition. Let the amp do some work!!!!! You can get killer metal tones from a medium output p/u with a great amp while still maintaining clarity and definition. With a high output p/u and massive amplification,things can get muddy and less defined.


Originally Posted by LewguitarThe paf sound comes from a pickup wound no hotter than about 8.2K. Old Gibson pafs vary alot but were originally made with an alnico 2 magnet and the Duncans that cover those variations are the Seth Lover, Pearly Gates and Antiquity. A2 pafs tend to have less bass, more mids and smoother treble than the A5 paf that the 59 is based on.

The 59 is based on the alnico 5 paf that Gibson switched to and used throughout the 60's. It has more bass, less mids and brighter treble. You'll hear that kind of paf if you listen to Disrali Gears by Cream and the alnico 2 paf if you listen to Fresh Cream or Clapton with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.

Lew

NIce start... the big problem with quot;PAF tonequot; is that EVERYONE has their own idea of what sounds quot;vintage and quot;pafishquot;... these issues are only compounded by the large peoduction tolerances...... everything in between the 2 extremes (Mildly overwound at 9-9,5k with an a5 on one side and mildly underwound at around 7,5 with an a2) is SOMEBODYS holy grail.... that´s one of the main reasons that there are so many boutiqui winders and they can stay in business

I try to describe it as with a quot;vintagequot; style bucker, you can hear a certain quot;coilnessquot; to it. Loose-ish like a single coil pup but warmer, whereas a higher output pup will generally have a more quot;solidquot; tone, where it sounds like the coils are working together to push as much power as they can.

But that's just my ear...

The PAF sound is due in part to the coils being mis-matched. More of a single coil bite. I believe the Seths, Pearly Gates and Antiquity's are wound this way.

Seth Lover set out to make a quiet P-90 i.e lots of mids and that bite that P-90's have without the noise. The result was the PAF humbucker.

gt5litre

thank you guys i appreciate you responding.