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Hi all, im a self-taught guitarist and i was wondering if the concept of modes which i figured out myself is correct.. Please enlightened me

To put it simple, what i figured out was for each chord (eg. major/minor), it consist of three notes in a certain pattern. I think some it was referred to as 1-3-5/1-3b-5 (not sure about this but i have my own method of counting it anyway). My idea of modes is that while a chord is being played in a song (eg. Gmajor chord), I will use the 3 notes of G major chord (G,B,D) as the 'base' (meaning with more emphasis of these notes) to improvise and using other notes of the scale in the key of the song for 'added interest' (meaning passing tone with less emphasis). Now say the chord is changed from Gmajor to Dmajor, I would use the same method as before by using the 3 notes of D major chord (D,F#,A) as 'base' and other notes of the scale in the key of the song (which shld be the same since it is the same song) as 'added interest'

Am i correct with the theory of modes to improvise?

Your thinking and analyzing, which is great! But your approach is slightly off...

The 1 3 5 of any given chord comes from the scales used to create that chord...

I like to use C Major becuase it has no shars/flats so you can easily see the movement...

C Major - Using the Major Scale Formula WWHWWWH... where W=Whole Step (2 frets) and H = Half Step (1 fret)... Meaning from C to D is a Whole Step, D to E - Whole, etc....
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
C D E F G A B C
W W H W W W H

C Major Chord
1 3 5
C E G

By using the numeral pattern above, you can also deduce which chords are in the key of C, but not their quality... SO, we use the Roman Numeral to distinguish quality

IF I=Major, the i=minor

I - C
ii - Dm
iii - Em
IV - F
V - G
vi - Am
vii - Bm
I - C

The respective scales/modes used to build these chords will also be used...

C Major (C Ionian) WWHWWWH
D minor (D Dorian) WHWWWHW
E minor (E Phrygian) HWWWHWW
F Major (F Lydian) WWWHWWH
G Major (G Mixolydian) WWHWWHW Note: this is actually the dominant, but right now the main thing for you is to understand that the Chord Tritones are major in relationship
A minor (A Aeolian) WHWWHWW
B minor (B Locrian) HWWHWWW

That doesn't really give you an ideal way of implementing the modes, but rather a better idea of modes themselves.. You should now be able to deduce if it is somthing you want to study further...

Hope this helps some,
Allen

Thanks alot.. One question:
Am i suppose to use each mode when that certain chord is played or can i use the modes whenever i like in the song?

There's a variety of ways to use modes.
One way to apply a mode is to use the mode that works for the position of the scale the song is in.
After all modes are a rearrangement of the major scale,(I'm generallizing here but lets keep it simple for now).
So say your song is in Cmaj.Lets say a basic 4 chord using the 1,6,4 and 2,(don't flame me this is just off the top of my head).
So in relation to the major scale your chord structure would be maj,min,sus,min. or Cmaj-Amin,Fsus,and Dmin,(I think the 6th is minor in relation to the root-it's been awhile since theory class),anyway-.
Keeping in mind that the rhyme to remember the placement of modes is:
If-(Ionian-also known as the major)
Dora-(dorian)
Plays-(Phrygian)
Like-(Locrian)
Me-(Mixolydian)
Alls-(Aeolian-also known as the natural minor scale)
Lost-(Lydian)
So using 1-6-4-2 your modes would be Ionian,Aeolian,Locrian and Dorian.
Play each of those modes one after the other in that order and pick otu notes from their structures that work over the chord and relates to the next chord/mode combo and so on.
The biggest mistake I hear with modal playing is that it sounds choppy.
I think the best quote I ever heard in relation to this stuff is something Jeff Berlin once said..quot;..mud is all you'll produce if you go for the 'Look Ma I can play Holst's 'The Planets' if you try to show off..quot;

I dont get it.. The modes that you guys have given me for Cmaj is simply the scale of Cmaj at different position of the neck (using different root notes). I already know the major scale. Was i wrong but i thought modes are something different from scales (eg. Cmaj scale in this case)? I thought modes are something that i could use for improvising over chord changes (eg. in Cmaj key song) besides just using scale (eg. using just Cmaj scale) but rather modes are unique notes that sound especially melodic when goes with the chord being played in the song. I can improvise over a Cmaj key song by just using Cmaj scale but i somehow feel it doesnt sound so melodic just by 'anyhow' running the scale (pentatonic scale as well) all over the fretboard.

So modes are just really a scale in different positions of a neck (using different root notes) ??

There is a direct relatinship between scales, modes, and chords... The scales are the groundwork, you can extract chord tones (1,3,5 for majors), and you can determine the chord progression as welll....

The IV of C is F
The V of C is G

When you play a D Dorian, which is the second mode (or scale) of C major, you are not playing C major...

A major scale follows one pattern and one pattern ONLY...

W-W-H-W-W-W-H

The D Dorian uses the same pitched, but starts at the ii of the I, in this case the D of C

The scale pattern is not major, it is Dorian

W-H-W-W-W-H-W

The intervals between notes are different than the major scale, so they flavor the changes...

The V is actually the Dominant... Which is simply a major scale with a flat 7th degree, which dominates the chord... The mode is called Mixolydian and follows this pattern

W-W-H-W-W-H-W

Again, you are using the same pitches in the C major, but you are starting on different intervals, so the sound is completley different... In this case, it will sound EXACTLY like a major scale until you get to the 7th... In the key of G, the 7 is F#, but in the key of C, the G Mixo had a flat 7, so the F is natural.. This will dominate the scale, and to resolve to the Tonic, you will have to move 2 frets, or one WHOLE step!

I hope this puts things in a different perspective for you... Dont fret (pun intended), music theory is frustrating at first, but once you become familiar with the relationships, it will all click one day!!

Feel free to drop a line if you need some more help,
Allen

Personally, I dont actually view things from this perspective... I use the scale from which each chord is built... It is, in essence the same thing if you analyze, but I dont have to analyze the entire key....

For instance in a G blues progression if G7, C7, D7.....
I would actually change scales with each chord... I would play the G Mixo for the one to complement the flat 7, as well as the C Mixo for the IV, and the D Mixo for the V....

Of courese, I throw in the Blues scales as well, but the are simple a variation of Pents for those resective chords....

G Major
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
G A B C D E F#

G 7 has a flat 7, or an F, so it was bult from the Mixo

G Mixo
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
G A B C D E F

G Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
G Bb C Db D F

SRV used the Mixo with the Blues alot, as do many others... Careful when hitting those flat 3rds and flat 5's... DOnt stay on them to long, but rather bend up to resolve, or just jump a 3rd to the 5 or flat 7 respectively....

However, if you analyz the modes, you are still playing the G major, you just flattened the 7 to add blues flavors to the mix... The C7 is based off the C Lydian, but altered to fit the blues styles of the song, and the D Mixo is already in dominant form...

In the end, the same results are achieved, but the steps you took to get there were different!

Allen

Thanks alot mate! That clears up alot of doubt i had.
Heres what i do when i improvise.. (please give some advice)

1) I know the scale im going to use for the key of the song and for each chord played across, i will use my scale pattern beginning with the root of the chord knowing its position relative to other scale patterns beginning with other roots (is this the same as using modes knowing its intervals relative to others?)
2) I will also recognize the position of the chord tones of the chord played and emphasize on them while improvising.
3) Lastly, I have the option of throwing other scales that works for the key of the song and working them through the chords played recognizing the root notes of the chords to begin the scale patterns with. (eg. using minor pentatonic or blues or minor harmonic for a minor key song)

Is the way im seeing improvision correct. Should i change my way of seeing it. Any opinions?

I
Don't
Play
Legit
Music
A
Lot


Originally Posted by guitartestaI
Don't
Play
Legit
Music
A
Lot

Yes you do, you just don't know it. You've got jazz in your blood now by this time BOY!

Help... I got a question.
Ok, i already know scale (eg. Cmajor scale) all over the fretboard and i know the positions of every note of the scale all over the fretboard (eg. All the positions of D in the scale on the fretboard). However, I remember them by their positions in the scale pattern and not by intervals. Do you think i still need to memorize intervals? Is there any advantages to knowing its interval number?

One question to Gordon:
You said that different modes have different intervals because they begin with different root notes. However, I dont have to start on the root note of a certain mode when i improvise and since all the notes (though different intervals) of the certain mode belongs to the Major scale, how am i going to make it sound different? Isnt it the same as improvising using the Major scale alone? (Major scale meaning eg. C Major scale all over the fretboard and not just one 'box' pattern position)

Thanks!

The last statement you made, justifies learning the numerical intervals.... No you dont have to start each scale on the root... In fact, that gets borig rather quickly to hear someone do that... Generally, the bass player is sounding the root, so the guitarist should hit some notes that really accentuate the song either through the chord changes, or emphais on passing and leading tones (tones NOT in the chord)....

I learned the modes and there relatinoship to the keys, but that is not how I PLAY... The tthree steps you mentioned earlier are similar to the methods I use....

I analyze the progression of chords that I am using, and the flavor of the chord itself... From there, I will practice the scales that were used to build whatever the chords are, but I do so in ALL positions... And I practice changing from each scale pattern in corelation to the respective chord changes....

Once I have that down, it is usually elementary in complexity, so I try to use intervals for the changes other than the roots for the chords...

Sticking with the key of G, check this out....
A simple 12-bar G vamp....

G7 G7 G7 G7
C7 C7 G7 G7
D7 C7 G7 D7

G Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
G Bb C Db D F

C Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
C Eb F Gb G Bb

D Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
D F G Ab A C

On the changes from G7 to C7, you can lead into the scale by way of sliding from the root of the I to the b5 of the IV... Or simply put, from G to Gb, and start the C blues there... now, you wouldnt play this lineraly as though you were going to start on the b5 and end on the octave of the b5... You would still do best to use expressions as thought you were singing... vocal expressions... You could also go from the 5 of the I, to the b3 of the IV... Or, from D to Eb... Also, from the b7 of I to the b5 of the IV, or from F to Gb... these are simple ideas that open a world of licks and riffs...

The reversal, from C7 to G7, isnt so easy... the idea is to hit notes exclusive to the scale of the current key to distinguish the chord changes... in order to do that, there are only 3 half step moves that are exclusive to G7 from C7... From the b3 of the IV to the 5 of the I, or from Eb to D.... from the b5 of the IV to the 1 of the I, or Gb to G.... and from the I of the IV to the b5 of the I, or from C to Db... I tend to steer away from landing on the root AT the change, but while you are experimenting with this technique, it might serve well to use this step... It will reinforce the new scale until you get familiar with starting on other intervals....

From G7 to F7, you might want to try moving from the 1 of the I to the b5 of the V, or from G to Ab... or even the 3b of the I to the 5 of the V, or from Bb to A... there are others in there, but I will let you get familiar with the practice....

You are right, since you are starting on different intervals, you are playing the C Major, just on different starting points... That is why I say you can analyze scales ALL day long, but until you start to actually put them to use, they are going to cause nothing but headaches!

Any more questions, and I'll be glad to offer assistance...

I you have MS Excel, and are interested, PM me, and I will send you an eCopy of the Excel spreadsheet I use to help analyze keys... i have some blank ones, and I also have one filled out for the G Vamp we used above....

Take Care,
Allen

Thanks for the long reply.. I read thru' it a few times and i'm having an headache already.. I couldn't understand it completely but i think i get some of what you are trying to say..

You said quot;The last statement you made, justifies learning the numerical intervals....quot;
Do you mean this sentence: quot;eg. C Major scale all over the fretboard and not just one 'box' pattern positionquot;
By the way, what i meant was not really C major scale as in Ionian. What i meant was the Major scale (consisting of all 7 modes) mixed together. I remember them such that i could play them starting from anywhere not just from C and ending at anywhere not just at C. Its like just flying around the Major scale all over the fretboard not thinking about modes or intervals.

Is there any good for me to memorize modes and intervals now since you said quot;You are right, since you are starting on different intervals, you are playing the C Major, just on different starting points... quot; and quot;No you dont have to start each scale on the root... In fact, that gets borig rather quickly to hear someone do that...quot;

Thanks!!!

PS: Thanks for your offer.. I will PM if i need help ..

Now i have a question, i know that if i play an A minor Pentatonic over an A min chord it outlines it as minor. If however, If i play the A minor Pentatonic over a C major Chord, it would be draw the ear more to the major. I know that the C major pentatonic is the relative major to a Aminor Pentatonic. Now, if instead, I played a E minor (or even a full 7 tone, with empaphis on the notes of the E minor chord) pentatonic over A min, would it quot;soundquot; like the phygrian mode?

So if i was to play in E phygrian, would i play a standard progression in the key of A minor and just hang around on E pentatonic?

Also, how do I determine the key or mode of a chord progression? I find that when soloing over the first bars of Mr. Crowley, which according to guitar world is in A Aeolian, the 1st part of the first solo is constructed out of the D minor pentatonic. Does that make it Dorian? 'coz accenting those notes seems to make it sound better than playing the notes and A minor pentatonic.