software

Ok, I understand (for the most part) the whole minor scale thing (TSTTSTT and all that Jive) and I even went through and did a whole Aminor scale fretboard thing (I don't know how to explain it) to help pound it into my head...(I did a thing similiar to if you go here from : localhost/then full fretboard finder then natural minor scale in A) And I did that using the whole TSTTSTT thing...
well anyways heres my question...
You know how the pentatonic scale has 5 quot;boxquot; patterns that all quot;chainquot; together across the fretboard? Is this the same with the minor scale?
I only know the 1 box shape (in relation to the pentatonic shapes its the 4th one for me) and I am 90% sure that there is 4 more shapes that can quot;chainquot; together to form what you see on the link above.
So to simplify, what are the minor scale quot;boxquot; shapes that can be chained together to get what you see on the link above,
or how is the above links thing split up into box patterns?

I hope this makes sense thanks in advance.

-mat

Edit: The shape I know (in A) is in the 12th position/fret (in E it would be at the 7th position/fret etc)

Patterns are for dressmakers.

Draw out a fretboard (or more for neatness) and try and draw some out - that way you're thinking more about where the notes are, which should help you learn the fretboard more.

I already made on with all the notes in the A minor scale on the fretboard (as stated above)...I just need to break it into box shapes and I was wondering if you guys knew what they were, I could break them into box shapes but there is a RIGHT way to do it and I dont want to put 2 notes on day the G string in the box where there should be 3...like I don't know which notes overlap from box to box...does that make sense?

Yes, like the minor pentatonic scale, natural minors also have different 'boxes' or shapes. Technically, these are what you'd call the modes of the A minor scale.

If you'd really like to split them up into boxes with clear divisions in your mind, think of it this way: Take the pentatonic box patterns you're used to. Notice what position your hand is in, and when you change positions to go to other notes in other boxes. All you have to do is take your existing pentatonic 'boxes' and add in the notes that would also be in the natural minor scale.

Thanks man, thats a great way! And modes confuse me right now..so expect a question on them within the next little while!

Look, I'm basically a musical idiot, but I'll tell you this. The quot;boxquot; way of learning to play will facilitate it, but don't limit yourself to those quot;boxesquot;. Between any two boxes in any direction, there are a bunch of other hidden boxes. Until you find the passing tones, grace notes, etc., you are stuck in those little boxes.

This probably makes no sense to anyone other than me, but I wish that someone would have told me that in the way that I just told you. Preferably, years before I figured it out for myself.

Of course, it's always better if you actually know the theory behind what you're playing and why it works. I wish that I had the self-discipline.


Originally Posted by George BaileyPassing tones? Grace notes? Please elaborate. I need to be helped out of the boxes.

Hey, George. Welcome to the board, and sorry about your other ear after that fall through the ice. As I said, I'm a musical idiot. I don't have the musical vocabulary or knowledge to properly explain what I mean. I wish that I did.

That must be the secret to being a real player. Not relying on patterns and boxes. Rather, to play what one feels from the heart, and go with it as SRV said. I suppose one simply must get to the point to where he hears the notes in his head knows what the next note should be before he plays it.

But, being the analytical person that I am attempting the bridge the gap to the artistic world of guitar playing. I too have had to use the patterns and boxes. But, I know full well that the boxes are limiting they are only a starting point...

You know, Todd, that's the thing that not being able to express myself in a written musical form limits me to. If we could just sit down together, we could all show each other this, that, and the other. We can't, so it would be far better if we all spoke the language of written music. Unfortunately, I'm fairly ignorant in those terms.


Originally Posted by HamerPlyrYou know, Todd, that's the thing that not being able to express myself in a written musical form limits me to. If we could just sit down together, we could all show each other this, that, and the other. We can't, so it would be far better if we all spoke the language of written music. Unfortunately, I'm fairly ignorant in those terms.

That would be great fun. until then, I may have to study the tabs of Billy Gibbons, EVH, SRV, and Angus and see how their notes look relative to the boxes.

Yep. In the big picture, I would encourage anyone and everyone to be better than me and learn the theory and notation behind all of it. TAB is both the boon and bane of the guitar player's existence, IMO.


Originally Posted by HamerPlyrYep. In the big picture, I would encourage anyone and everyone to be better than me and learn the theory and notation behind all of it. TAB is both the boon and bane of the guitar player's existence, IMO.

No short cuts? The best thing I do, IMO, is practice the scales and then jam/play and see what I can create. Doing that, sometimes I even surprise myself.

Time, playing, practice, theory. Play, play and play some more.

Patterns are ok...just think in rhythm patterns instead and accents, work out melody lines on single strings, then go with more strings, up and down, across and so on, just go for you feel sounds like close to the melody you probally can hear somewhere in your head.
Look at the chords, find the notes, take the root and then find the notes that works with that.
I always take the simple route, then I just add along..think in lines, try to work out vocal like lines.
That way you think in music and not just guitar.

Yeah, when I first started on the pentatonic quot;boxesquot; I just stayed in one, they go to the next and play a bit in that etc. Now, I do all sorts of things using pentatonics but don't just stay in the box per se, I move around alot and basically just use the quot;boxesquot; as a way of knowing which notes are at my disposal...I'm actually starting to use chromatic passing tones more and its pretty hit and miss in certain cases...I hope that made sense up there. I want the box shapes of the minor scale so I know which notes are at my disposal to get that minor scale sound in my solos. make sense?

Lotsa
Seems like you just need more basic knowledge, lol I learned to read and write music, plus had all the other stuff like singing and constructing tunes.
All of which I use nothing now.
Can't read to save my life, don't write jack..lol
But I learned the basics, and played in bands.
And never stopped using my ears.

Kamanda, you really don't get box shapes for scales, you get scales.

Scale shapes or patterns re-occur up the neck in a simular fashion to pentitonic boxes. The patterns for Amin will be the same as Bmin, just two frets apart. How they walk up the neck is a little tricky to explain but I'll try. I'll use Amin, the relative minor of Cmaj because both have no sharps or flats.

C major has no accidentals and the notes are c d e f g a b c.

Start on the 6th string on the open e and play to the first string using no sharps or flats.

-----------------------------0-1-3
-----------------------0-1-3------
-------------------0-2------------
------------0-2-3-----------------
------0-2-3-----------------------
0-1-3-----------------------------

This is both a C major scale starting on the 3rd tone and an A minor scale starting on the fifth tone.

Since the first fret F is included in the above example I usually don't include it as a seperate scale though it does have its own modal position in the scale. If you want to learn how to play over 5 frets with 4 fingers you can look into it.

The next example starts on the 3rd fret G, playing no sharps or flats.

--------------------------------3-5
--------------------------3-5-6---
-------------------2-4-5----------
------------2-3-5-----------------
-----2-3-5------------------------
3-5--------------------------------

That is the 5 tone position in C major and the 7th tone position of A min. Using the next available scale tone you work your way up the neck. Here is A min first position.

------------------------------5-7-8-
-----------------------5-6-8--------
-----------------4-5-7-------------
------------5-7--------------------
------5-7-8------------------------
5-7-8------------------------------Keep working your way up and you'll find the rest of the patterns. Your major and many of the minors are directly related to each other and the patterns are the same. Learn all the majors through all the modes and you'll have a killer grasp of the neck.

The reason you play scales isn't to learn scales so much as to train your ear and hands to work together and to develop muscle memory in relation to sounds and position on the neck.

After that playing becomes intuitive instead of mechanical.

Thanks for all your help guys!

quot;Scale shapes or patterns re-occur up the neck in a simular fashion to pentitonic boxes. The patterns for Amin will be the same as Bmin, just two frets apart.quot;
Yes, I knew that.
All the rest of what you typed was very helpful, thank you!! (and expect further theory questions from me as well)

Kamanda, I take a fairly relaxed view of theory. My formal musical education included playing trumpet in middle through high school in symphony band, symphony orchestra and jazz band as well a playing in a community orchestra for several years. I also took a year of class piano in HS and took several college level classes in advanced music theory, ear training and sight singing as well as others. I have also done a lot of reading and playing over the years and have taken more than a few lessions.

Dispite all that (or maybe because of it) I don't get hung up on the latin names for the modes or the seemingly endless funky-named variations. I am far more focused on how and why certain harmonic structures sound the way they do and how everything is inter-connected.

I find it's far more important to understand the circle of fifths and the order of how accidentals are added into a chord family than it is to know the latin names for everything.

So while I may have forgotten all the fancy stuff I can still probably help you out in laymans terms. I may have a copy of all the majors and all their modes written out in block form. It's something I give to all my students to help them develop technique and to learn the fretboard as a whole and not in pieces.

I'll look around.

Thanks, now I have a question for you:
Scale wise and stuff, what do you think I should learn first??

EDIT: I have had a subscription to G1 since 2003, I looked through alot of mags today and found alot of useful articles, so when you suggest what I shoudl leanr first theres no need to take up your time and explain it all i ngreat detail!
But thanks for your help, I really appreiciate it.