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This Fender Showmaster with the floating 2 point tremolo just won't stay in tune after using the bar. Especially that evil G string. Here's what I've learned from this forum: Lube the nut and saddles and use some sandpaper to widen the slots in the nut.

1. Is this correct?
2. How does the string tree come into play? How high or low should it be?
3. Anything else I should do?

Thanks in advance.

Steve


Originally Posted by SoCalSteveThis Fender Showmaster with the floating 2 point tremolo just won't stay in tune after using the bar. Especially that evil G string. Here's what I've learned from this forum: Lube the nut and saddles and use some sandpaper to widen the slots in the nut.

1. Is this correct?
2. How does the string tree come into play? How high or low should it be?
3. Anything else I should do?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

Wow, where to start on this one!!! LOL!!!!!

It could really be 20 different things making it go out of tune! Lubing the nut and using fine sandpaper on the slots might be a start! Since it is a floating setup that might be part of the problem? Also, It could be the way the guitar is strung and the strings are broken in. Could be the material of the nut, some materials are more forgiving than others. It could be hanging up on the string trees but, probally not I would guess. The string tree holds the string in the slot correctly so it stays in contact with the nut. Thats the purpose, if its doing that and not making the string bend at any kind of crazy angle, its probally OK. I could give you alot of suggestions if it were here on the bench in front of me but, thats not an option!!! LOL!!! Also, Zerb may be able to shed some light on things, he seems alot better at putting his thoughts into written word. I myself am not that good at it!!!!! LOL!!!

Take a deck of cards and pick one....Theodie really put it down, put it down in front of a good tech and get them to sort it out. Some problems are the player not the guitar but as an experienced player it shouldn't be you, but after 30 years I still blame the instrument not the idiot playing it for not getting the sound in my head.

A bit more spring tension?, mute the strings and give it a tweak sharp and a muted left hand (full) twist of the strings. Works for me as this was before locking nuts etc. and I still don't have/need one.

Hope this helps, it will probably hinder more but at least I've offered my advice.

What is the opposite of advice? Disadvice? No, information from any goverment department is!

American Standard style 2-point, right? Not a double locking or? I´ll assume V-trem type and Hope I´m right

Possible causes and their solutions, regardless of how miniscule they might seem... I´ll try to move from the headstock to the bridge, and I´ll probably forget half..

A. Tuners1. Non-locking:
a. Are the strings strung up correctly in the sense of properly threaded and self locked? I think there´s a Vault thread on this
b. Are the tuner nuts/ ferrules tight? if the nuts are loose, tighten them, loose grommets can be helped either by a dab of wood glue in a jiffy or by a layer of tape around the grommet before it´s pushed /hammered in
c. Are the tuners a bit firm or are the loose and easy to turn? Any Play in the tuners when turned? If they´re modern enclosed ones, tighten the screw on the key a bit. They shouldn´t require force to move, but should be between quot;fluid but deliberatequot; and lightly firm. If they´re vintage style stamped ones, remove the cover and tighten the crown gear a bit. If it can´t be made to work properly, it may need replacing.
2. Locking
a. All of the above apply. Strings should be strung up straight and mildly taut through the locking mechanism and then locked. there should be less that a turn around the post at pitch.
b. is the locking mechaniusm free of any gunk and Debris such as burrs and old strings? Remove it please. c. Does the locking mechanism have any play or is it firm when locked? If it has play, you may need a new tuner.

B. String Trees
1. Are there any Burrs on the tree? if they´re roller trees, do the rollers work smoothly? Oil rollers if necessary, sand/file/dremel off and polish any burrs
2. is the string contact surface smooth and shiny? Polish it if necessary

C. Nut
1. is the nut properly seated or does it move in it´s slot? A drop of wood or superglue will help to hold it in, or of it´s a Fender style nut and it´s too thin a new nut or a shim (from the back) may be necessary
2. are the nut slots too deep? More than 3/4 of the string isn´t good and can cause binding. Sand down the top of the nnut if necessary, 1/2 the string height is ideal
3. are slots too thin or too wide? If they´re too thin, the strings can bind, sandpaper will help here. If they´re too wide, they can be built up with superglue bone dust and re-cut, but most will want a new nut.
4. How are the slot bottoms? Ideal for trems is if the bottom is flat so that the string has less contact´surface, but this is a minimal detail. It needs to be smooth and shiny, though, and adding nut sauce or powdered graphite /pencil lead can help a bit as well.
5. Is the back of the Nut quot;featheredquot;? It´s common on trems (but not essential) to widen the slots toward the back to help reduce contact surface and alleviate binding.

D. Strings
1. Are they properly stretched?

E. Neck/Body Joint for Bolt-ons.
1. Are the screws tight? If they´re loose , the shifting neck can cause tuning problems... if they´re loose in the holes, 2-3 toothpicks soaked in wood glue in each hole, rescrew, voilá.
2. Is the neck pocket too large for the neck? This can cause shifting and tuning issues.. shim it if necessary to reduce movement.

F. Pickups
1. vintage Style Single coil pickups causing wierd tones becasue of a too close proximity to the strings can add to other tuning issues and compound them.

G. The Trem itself
1. The pivot points a. 6 and 2 Hole quot;screwquot; Trems 1. Are the screws themselves free of burrs, or do they have deep scars in them? Replace or polish them if necessary, make sure all 6 are as identical as possible. 2. Are the holes smooth or do they have burrs or pits in them? agin, polish /file, a new baseplate may also be necessary. 3. Are the screws tight in ther holes in the body or do they wobble? a Glue soaked matchstick can solve this.

b. Knife edge style trems
1. are the bushings the posts sit in tight? If not pull them and superglue them back in. 2. Are the knife edges pitted or worn? if they are new edges or a new baseplate may be in order.
2. The Trem Blocka. is it screwed on tightly? Tighten it if it isn´t
3. The Springs and Claw
a. are the claw screws in tight or do they have play? Matchsitcks and glue again.

I think that´s about it... if I think of anything else I´ll add it



Zerberus you have just given the best quot;Electric guitar luthiery 101quot; I've ever seen!

If your in Melbourne Australia I'll buy you a drink and when in Freiburg I'll still buy you drink, that is vault worthy!

Wow Zerb! I greatly appreciate the detailed checklist and am going to go through each step. You're right that it's a 2 point non-locking trem. It does have locking tuners. Guitar is brand new, just needs fine tuning, but you've laid out a great action plan and I want to thank you again.

Steve

P.S. The string tree on the D and G strings is pretty low and the strings are at a sharp angle. I believe I'll start there by raising, smoothing, and lubing it and then check the tuners and work the nut with the procedures you outline and continue from there........

*bump* for other interested parties

This is definately vault worthy. Thank you, Theodie and Zerberus.

Both of the other guys hit it RIGHT on the head, so I have nothing to say, except to take my hat off to Zerb for the excellent trouble shooting on the trem. Pitting isn't something that we guitar players think about our base plates doing, but it happens over time.

Luke


Originally Posted by bluey@sunni

Zerberus you have just given the best quot;Electric guitar luthiery 101quot; I've ever seen!

If your in Melbourne Australia I'll buy you a drink and when in Freiburg I'll still buy you drink, that is vault worthy!

1
reading for my licensed Jackson Floyd, where G does not want to stay tuned.

Told you those guitars were notorious for not staying in tune as soon as you touch the bar. Like I said, the good news is that it's fixable. I would take it to a tech though instead of trying to troubleshoot it yourself.


Originally Posted by XeromusTold you those guitars were notorious for not staying in tune as soon as you touch the bar. Like I said, the good news is that it's fixable. I would take it to a tech though instead of trying to troubleshoot it yourself.

I don't think it's the bridge. I think it's the nut. G goes out of tune when bending. On the G string I hear a ping when turning the tuner so I'm gonna lightly sand the grooves in the nut and lube everything whenever my GHS GraphitALL arrives. Also, I went back and really stretched the strings and it reduced the problem. I think working the nut and a string change will hopefully fix the annoyance. Those U.S.A. Floyd's really do stay in tune though, don't they!


Originally Posted by SoCalSteveI don't think it's the bridge. I think it's the nut. G goes out of tune when bending. On the G string I hear a ping when turning the tuner so I'm gonna lightly sand the grooves in the nut and lube everything whenever my GHS GraphitALL arrives. Also, I went back and really stretched the strings and it reduced the problem. I think working the nut and a string change will hopefully fix the annoyance. Those U.S.A. Floyd's really do stay in tune though, don't they!

Yeah the unfortunate thing is they don't pay much attention with the initial setup on lower priced guitars like that. Sounds like just a nut issue to me, but zerb's the expert.

Great help Zerb, much appreciated!

And yes, real floyds DO stay in tune!

Update - Here's what I did and the guitar now stays in tune:

1. Removed strings (duh)
2. Removed string trees
3. Took extra fine sandpaper, folded it in half and lighly sanded underneath string trees, into nut slots and on bridge saddles
4. Applied GHS GraphitALL creamy lube on trees, nut slots and saddles
5. Put on Fender Bullets designed for tremolos

Also, while strings were off I applied Dunlop Lemon Oil to fretboard.
Plays like a champ now. Thanks for all the great tips!


Originally Posted by SoCalSteveI don't think it's the bridge. I think it's the nut. G goes out of tune when bending. On the G string I hear a ping when turning the tuner so I'm gonna lightly sand the grooves in the nut and lube everything whenever my GHS GraphitALL arrives. Also, I went back and really stretched the strings and it reduced the problem. I think working the nut and a string change will hopefully fix the annoyance. Those U.S.A. Floyd's really do stay in tune though, don't they!

i have the same problem on my SG.. obviously it has no trem, but the ping you're describing is the same.
a new nut (or recut nut) and new tuners (preferably locking ones) will rectify that problem

and no.. those USA floyds dont stay in tune cos they're all made in germany by schaler ... but yea, those DO stay in tune. i've done things with my trem in the last two days that i was afraid it will pack it's bags and walk out the door, but it still works without a problem. even raised the action a tad so it has full functionality

Thanks guys, heck I´m still surprised I didn´t leave anything out Originally Posted by Daveyi have the same problem on my SG.. obviously it has no trem, but the ping you're describing is the same.
a new nut (or recut nut) and new tuners (preferably locking ones) will rectify that problem....

Tuners won´t help, it was almost certainly a quot;purequot; slot width issue... the tuners raise and lower tension on the string, but they can´t be a cause of that much tension being stored and released unless they´re REALLY farked up, as in: post turns when it wants to, randomly, and at no other time... need a few decades of bad maintenance for that to happen.

But Dirtbagg: There are quite a few things that come into play additionally on Floyds, I´m still working on that one (started last summer, and it´s HUGE.... and nowhere near being finished, either ).... if you run into additional problems PM me

This thread should go in the vault.........a lot of good info here.