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What strats/guitars are collectible? Investment worthy? Pre-1980? Pre-1970? Can be bought quot;reasonablyquot; today that are likely to appreciate significantly over the next 10-20 years?

Because people can't seem to seperate the concepts of quot;oldquot; and quot;desirable,quot; if you pick up a 15 lb tank of a plastic finished, big headstocked 70's Strat- someone will pay too much for it.

The rule of thumb for quot;vintagequot; is 20 years (or 25 some will argue). Technically, as an investment, anything past that age falls into that category.

The 70's Strats are becoming more valuable these days not just because of the technical number of years that they ahve aged but because Strats older than that have become almost wholly untouchable by players. Thanks to CBS and the reputation they had they've remained in the lower-end of the financial spectrum in the past.

I'd like to chime in and say that the 73' I own is the lightest Strat I have ever laid my hands on. I've played hundreds of Strats over the years from Custom Shop creations to Standards to Squiers. By far my 73' is the lightest chunk of wood I have ever had my mitts on. Not all 70's Strats are bad.

I will post an article from Vintage Guitar magazine where George Gruhn eloborates on the concept of vintage. It is quite interesting and I think it will be very helpful especially with the question here. I will post later today when I get home.


Originally Posted by SkarekroughThe rule of thumb for quot;vintagequot; is 20 years (or 25 some will argue). Technically, as an investment, anything past that age falls into that category.
I'd like to chime in and say that the 73' I own is the lightest Strat I have ever laid my hands on. I've played hundreds of Strats over the years from Custom Shop creations to Standards to Squiers. By far my 73' is the lightest chunk of wood I have ever had my mitts on. Not all 70's Strats are bad.

1 I have a 73' Strat that play's like a dream and is light. But i have played
some of the later 70's Strat that where Aweful. Stupid heavy northern Ash
bodies,And the neck pocket tolarance's where way off. There really is nothing
wrong with the 3 bolt design if your tooling Q.C. is checked from time to time.
But people are willing to plunk down well over a grand for a late 70's S serial #
Strat?

I was trying hard to buy a 73 strat from a local store! They had it sitting in the back with no pickguard for years.. some kid had bought it at a garage sale and brought it in and never came back for it..... He left it to get a quote on pickups and stuff for it and see how much work it needed. They phoned and phoned the kid saying if he didn't come back for it they would sell it... after 2-3 years it was still sitting there. I offered them $400 for the thing.. wouldn't you know it he showed up a few days before they were going to sell it to me! It was a nice natural ash body and an all maple neck! The Bridge had some sort of replacement saddles on it, looked like original tuners.. It would of been a perfect base for me to build a Ritichie Blackmore Burn era strat....

WhoFan


Originally Posted by SkarekroughThe rule of thumb for quot;vintagequot; is 20 years (or 25 some will argue). Technically, as an investment, anything past that age falls into that category.

And that's wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong- I'm saying the concept is flawed.

Things should become collectable (or quot;vintagequot; if you will) because of the traits and characteristics they possess, not because they're old. Just because a guitar is old doesn't mean it's good. I remember a guy trying to get like $700 for a 70's Epiphone. That thing was garbage shaped like a guitar. The funny thing is, somebody probably paid it. A long time ago I paid $150 for a 70's Epi 335, I paid WAY too much. If you're looking at buying an old guitar, think of why you're buying it. If you're thinking- quot;I want an unstable neck joint with a large, aesthetically unpleasing headstock, and really thick polyurethane finishquot; then that's what you're after. If you're thinking- quot;it's a 70's Strat.quot; ...then maybe you should be looking for something else. While there were gems of all time periods, you can say quot;Not all 70's Strats are bad,quot; the majority are quot;not the best guitars in the world,quot; it's just that at that time the materials and construction techniques were different, and there were different ideas of what made a good guitar. If those materials, construction techniques and ideas converge to what is currently viewed as good, then it's a quot;vintagequot; guitar.

The other thing that chaps my behind about quot;vintagequot; stuff is people buying vintage guitars to mod. It's one thing to switch pickups or something pretty much reversable... but there was this disturbing trend of people buying perfectly serviceable 50's P-90 Les Pauls and turning them into quot;conversions.quot; No matter what you do, if you get a 1952 trapeze TP, goldtop, P-90 Les Paul, it's never, EVER going to be a 1959 Les Paul. You can move the Gibson logo, you can retop the guitar, you can get all the 1959 hardware you want, but it isn't going to change that guitar from what it is- which would be a butchered 1952 LP at that point.


Originally Posted by The Golden BoyAnd that's wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong- I'm saying the concept is flawed.

No offense taken and I understand your sentiment and comprehend why. But the numbers justify the facts of it.

Hey...I'm certain there are probably a few 59' Les Pauls that are just all-out dogs that have only fetched the price they have because of their year of origin.

If you're thinking- quot;I want an unstable neck joint with a large, aesthetically unpleasing headstock, and really thick polyurethane finishquot; then that's what you're after. If you're thinking- quot;it's a 70's Strat.quot; ...then maybe you should be looking for something else. While there were gems of all time periods, you can say quot;Not all 70's Strats are bad,quot; the majority are quot;not the best guitars in the world,quot; it's just that at that time the materials and construction techniques were different, and there were different ideas of what made a good guitar. If those materials, construction techniques and ideas converge to what is currently viewed as good, then it's a quot;vintagequot; guitar.

I always find it amusing that the neck joints are called quot;unstablequot; and folks argue that they went to the micro-tilt three-bolt neck so that they could save money when the fact of the matter was that the extra work and hardware for the micro-tilt actually cost them more than had they used a standard 4-bolt joint.

My 73's as stable as they come and sounds killer. I hated the headstock but have grown to love it, so much I prefer it over the smaller ones. And the finish has mellowed nicely as well to a deep yellow, almost honey, color.

So I guess it must be quot;vintagequot;!

The other thing that chaps my behind about quot;vintagequot; stuff is people buying vintage guitars to mod. It's one thing to switch pickups or something pretty much reversable... but there was this disturbing trend of people buying perfectly serviceable 50's P-90 Les Pauls and turning them into quot;conversions.quot;

I can't agree with you more on this.

I view guitars as like fine peices of art. We can have them and play them but we should keep in mind that we are only caretakers of them for a set amount of time and should consider anything we do physically to them in the long-term.

Mostly pre 73/74. Throw in some anniversaries and special editions, and pretty much all the Custom Shops.

I had a good laugh at some eager beaver on Ebay who was trying to get $2000 each, for his collection of 94/50th Ann. Am. Stds......you know, the one with the little flag on the headstock. Try $800 idiot!!!


Originally Posted by SkarekroughHey...I'm certain there are probably a few 59' Les Pauls that are just all-out dogs that have only fetched the price they have because of their year of origin.

I always find it amusing that the neck joints are called quot;unstablequot; and folks argue that they went to the micro-tilt three-bolt neck so that they could save money when the fact of the matter was that the extra work and hardware for the micro-tilt actually cost them more than had they used a standard 4-bolt joint.

My 73's as stable as they come and sounds killer. I hated the headstock but have grown to love it, so much I prefer it over the smaller ones. And the finish has mellowed nicely as well to a deep yellow, almost honey, color.

I'm sure there are more than a few 58-60 LPs that get by on quot;reputationquot; alone. But when Bad Coconuts would sell for most houses in a good neigborhood...

My first quot;realquot; electric guitar was a 72-74 Telecaster Custom- Keith Richards style, but blonde. It had the 3 bolt neck. That thing was a horrible abomination of guitar production. If you tried to do somewhat of a neck bend with it, the whole thing went out of tune- then you could force the neck back the other way and pop it perfectly back in tune. I don't think the 3 bolt mico-tilt design was to save money at all, it's actually a nice idea- CBS just did an extraordinarily bad job of production of it. I have a 98 Gamp;L L2000 with the 3 bolt micro-tilt neck- it's as solid as any other bolt on neck. Gamp;L actually changed their design to like a 6 bolt neck JUST BECAUSE of the reputation CBS gave the 3 bolt design. I have yet to use the micro-tilt feature though...
I view guitars as like fine peices of art. We can have them and play them but we should keep in mind that we are only caretakers of them for a set amount of time and should consider anything we do physically to them in the long-term.

Words of beauty, my friend.


Originally Posted by GearjoneserI had a good laugh at some eager beaver on Ebay who was trying to get $2000 each, for his collection of 94/50th Ann. Am. Stds......you know, the one with the little flag on the headstock. Try $800 idiot!!!

Hell, if I can get $800 for my '94 Strat then I know it's worth something. I had no idea what their value was today. Paid $500 for it brand new in '94. I think the list was something like $849 with the hardshell case.


Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
My first quot;realquot; electric guitar was a 72-74 Telecaster Custom- Keith Richards style, but blonde. It had the 3 bolt neck. That thing was a horrible abomination of guitar production. If you tried to do somewhat of a neck bend with it, the whole thing went out of tune- then you could force the neck back the other way and pop it perfectly back in tune. I don't think the 3 bolt mico-tilt design was to save money at all, it's actually a nice idea- CBS just did an extraordinarily bad job of production of it. I have a 98 Gamp;L L2000 with the 3 bolt micro-tilt neck- it's as solid as any other bolt on neck. Gamp;L actually changed their design to like a 6 bolt neck JUST BECAUSE of the reputation CBS gave the 3 bolt design. I have yet to use the micro-tilt feature though...

Yeah, I had a 76 strat that was very lightweight and had a killer brifge pickup tone, but the neck joint was appalling. A previous owner had wedged a pick down one side to keep the neck stable.

I'd say the chances of getting a good 70s fender are about 2 in 10, at least for what I'm looking for.


Originally Posted by Hot _GritsI'd say the chances of getting a good 70s fender are about 2 in 10, at least for what I'm looking for.

Now here's something interesting... Figure the good ones are getting played, the bad ones are kind of sitting. So if you see one that's got lots of playing wear on it, you can assume that it's a good one. If it's really clean and stock, there's probably a reason for that.


Originally Posted by The Golden BoyNow here's something interesting... Figure the good ones are getting played, the bad ones are kind of sitting. So if you see one that's got lots of playing wear on it, you can assume that it's a good one. If it's really clean and stock, there's probably a reason for that.

That's a theory I subscribe to.

Good guitars get hung on to by players. They hoard the things. And when they do let go of them I think it's more likely that they let them go to other players rather than some retail shop. The gear that I know I have considered quot;goodquot; and let go I always made an attempt to disperse among my group of friends.

But you never know with gear. There's always the total wildcard. Someone may have been helped to pick out an amazing axe that proceeded to sit under the bed for 25 years. It happens. I figure for the price of five minutes it takes to sit and play the cost is reasonable to find out.

However....I have had some time to think about collectible Strats.

The problem is that the ones that have a special designation as a quot;special editionquot; by Fender aren't that hard to find usually. The 50th Anniversary Strats, they made what....a few million of them? The 40th Anniversary ones? Probbaly a few dozen less. At best going back farther in time means that the smaller production run is more likely to mean less of them generally available.

Custom Shop Strats have a certain limited number to them, but for entry-level price versus what they will acrue over time can be cost-prohibitive. They're great guitars, but I've never heard of the Custom Shop not being able to put a guitar into someones hands who wants it. And with it still being a working facility the odds are that the market is only going be more saturated over time. At best you need to look at the special editions they do which insure a limited run, but you're still guessing at the overall appeal.

At best maybe something like first-year runs would fetch an incrimental amount more than subsequent years. The first-year SRV Strats currently have been known to fetch more due to the pau-ferro fingerboards. The change in the Jeff Beck models neck size may be along the same lines, but probably nowhere near as extreme.

If anyone has done it quot;rightquot; for making collectibles it's Ibanez. They've done a ton of quot;special editionquot; signature axes, but they've usually kept the run reasonably small.

The first rule in a quot;collectablequot; is someone has to want to collect it.

When my band did a 45 it was released as a quot;limited edition red vinylquot; thing. We did 500 and never did any non-limited editions!

Personally, I don't like that whole quot;collectors editionquot; mentality. The great stuff that people pay all the bank for these days were run of the mill production instruments.

The earliest quot;anniversaryquot; instrument I can think of is either the 74 20th anniversary LP custom, or there may have been a 72-ish goldtop reissue... Those 20th Anniv Customs weren't going for too much more than regular production instruments, last time I noticed.

I see nothing wrong with modding any guitar-- you can argue that no one really owns anything, but then again, that seems to only apply to working class folk who rarely pass on vast empires to their offspring-- so I don't really but it... are we talking socialism for the guitar trade? Trust me, the people who are brokering those '58-'60 LP Standards just don't have most of us on their radar screen.

As for those 70s Strats-- Fender was churning them out by the hundreds of thousands by the mid 70s. I've said this before and I'll stand by this: the only people reaping a return on their investment are those dealers selling Strats for $4000 who had purchased them for several hundred dollars over the last 20 years. It's a buying frenzy (the third so far for 70s Strats), and the only 70s guitars that ever really hold their value are the old Gibsons due in part that the prices never get so high as to have much of a loss after the market corrects itself-- they increase in value at a slow and steady pass and never seem to loose their attraction. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it will only seem like the prices continue to escalate mainly in part that it will be a little while before the market runs short on 70s Strats (See: churning them out by the hundreds of thousands). Supply and demand-- I think the supply will eventually be greater than the demand... again.

Less than 15 years ago I was picking up 50's LP Juniors at around $400 a pop. Even a few years ago you could pick up an early 60's Melody Maker for under $200. Five years ago or so I bought a 58 Special for 3K. I sold it last year for 5K. If I would have hung on to these guitars rather than trading them around- I'd be frickin' rich.

As far as quot;owningquot; a guitar... Several years ago I owned an early Travis Bean. The person who owned that guitar before me drilled a bunch of holes for mini-toggles. The dillweed who did that isn't reaping the benefits of raping that guitar, it made that guitar ugly as sin- the longer I had it, the more it bothered me, and it certainly ruined a lot of the collectability of that guitar. Why don't I own that guitar anymore? It was bright, heavy, the neck was made of metal and the body had a bunch of little holes drilled in it. When the ****stick that drilled those holes dies, those holes will still be in that guitar.


Originally Posted by The Golden BoyLess than 15 years ago I was picking up 50's LP Juniors at around $400 a pop. Even a few years ago you could pick up an early 60's Melody Maker for under $200. Five years ago or so I bought a 58 Special for 3K. I sold it last year for 5K. If I would have hung on to these guitars rather than trading them around- I'd be frickin' rich.

Yup. And the guy I worked with that got that Melody Maker I mentioned in another thread paid $200 for it. It hung on the wall for months. Now here I am gassing for one..lol.