software

Kac says: YES

Jackson King V = ESP DV8

Gibson Les Paul = A LOT OF OTHERS (some that are less expansive and just as good quality)Originally Posted by ZerberusAny guitar that´s an outright ripoff of another one should be illegal

Zerb statement here = removed But he's got it all wrong..
ROCK ON

Let's say you invent something.

You're saying it's fine that someone can take your idea and make money off it.

In the case of the Les Paul and the 335, those are Gibson's designs. They happen to be a few of the most popular electric guitar designs in history. The fact is- just looking through threads the person wants the genuine item whether they want to admit it or not. No one says quot;I'm looking for an H-150 style guitar.quot;


Originally Posted by The Golden BoyLet's say you invent something.

You're saying it's fine that someone can take your idea and make money off it.

In the case of the Les Paul and the 335, those are Gibson's designs. They happen to be a few of the most popular electric guitar designs in history. The fact is- just looking through threads the person wants the genuine item whether they want to admit it or not. No one says quot;I'm looking for an H-150 style guitar.quot;

There's something to be said about licensing though. Beta videotapes are superior in video and sound quality to VHS, but VHS was more popular. Why?

An excellent post.

BTW way I'm looking for and H-150 style guitar.....

Luke


Originally Posted by KacKac says: YES

Jackson King V = ESP DV8

Gibson Les Paul = A LOT OF OTHERS (some that are less expansive and just as good quality)Zerb would rather have people paying more money for the original But he's got it all wrong..
ROCK ON

kac, dont go where you got no ****ing idea what you are talking about

one thing is that you borrow a design and move somewhere else with it (see strat -gt; superstrat, flyingV -gt; KingV, Explorer -gt; Destroyer, Kelly)
the other thing is that when you have about 50 guitar shapes and NONE of them are your own .. dont.. DONT get started on the axxion .. that isnt even a shape.. and no, the devilgirl isnt either
the RR shape they got isnt even their own design, it's ripped of from the ibanez ripoff

no, it wasnt ok for ibanez and jackson to build lp's, explorers, flying V's etc etc. gibson went after them and they had to stop. jackson AFAIK went after ESP and ibanez and they arent allowed to sell the RR shape guitars in the states

ESP's quot;ooh, lookit, we havent ripped THAT off yetquot; policy = ****. they got no ideas how to design new shapes

and no, all the shapes arent done yet... see the warrior, death angel, death kelly etc etc etc. i've seen some UK luthiers do twists and GOOD things to existing shapes and going crazy and designing a KICKASS guitar from scratch, so dont go all the cool shapes are done already BS on me

ESP =

*Edit* Comment removed, thanks KAC

Now to the topic at hand:

You design something, I´ll copy it right down to the logo design and neither pay royalties for the design (as international law dictates) nor in any way make public that you designed it. You still gonna be that happy? Or are you going to want to do something about it? If you write a song, I steal it and release it as my own, are you REALLY going to still sit on the side you´re on now?

Intellectual property is still property and stealing it is still theft, period, no discussion necessary... Theft is a crime punishable by multiple things including Jail time. Or do you think the RIAA is able to get away with what they´re doing because they have absolutely no legal foothold?

There´s nothing wrong with quot;spinningquot; a design, the DV8 for example is the absolute borderline case of how much a design must be changed before it can be passed off as quot;newquot;. IMO that´s not enough, but ok...

Either way, an outright Ripoff is a 100% perfect copy with only the logo different.... a far cry from what you mistakenly assume I´m saying

BTW: the main reason teh VHS standard quot;establishedquot; itself was that they were the first format to allow PORN to be distributed on the cassettes... this broke beta´s neck.... So much for Porn never having been good for anything

*edit* As an added example: I´ve owned Bushido Balls, Gyrotwisters and Powerballs...

The Bushido balls are generally flimsy and low quality, but good as an quot;Advertising giftquot;.

Gyrotwisters are more stable, but still lack the quot;heftquot; in the rotation.

The Original Powerball on the other hand has a smooth rotation, a good quot;powerquot; behind it, and has over 5 years up on even the best copy.

Yet a friend of mine said: quot;But thay all Look almost the samequot;..... Exactly, learn to see PAST the surface to the things that are actually important. IMO this applies here as well


Originally Posted by Daveykac, dont go where you got no ****ing idea what you are talking about

I went there, and I'm not coming back!

This guitar is my original design:
Feel free to steal my idea, market it, and make MILLIONS of dollars!

Zerb, my appologies for the statement, it was just a joke, but I just won't say anymore jokes that involve you now.

Rock On!!!

btw (like a lot of this thread) I do not own any ESP's, but if I get a chance to get an AXXION, I'll be all over it! because AXXION is ESP's original design, made for Dave Mustaine, and it's a freakin' awesome guitar!!!


Originally Posted by ZerberusBTW: the main reason teh VHS standard quot;establishedquot; itself was that they were the first format to allow PORN to be distributed on the cassettes... this broke beta´s neck.... So much for Porn never having been good for anything

I had always heard that Sony wouldn't allow licensing of Betamax and JVC allowed companies to license the use of VHS; therefore the VHS format became dominant just by sheer numbers.

Then I found this:
from : localhost/tafkac.org/products/beta_vs_vhs.html

Scroll about 3/4 way down it lists what did not happen.

You learn something new every day!

Kac, I took it as a joke and assumed that, but it was just so diametrically opposed to my actual sentiments that I HAD to say something, no harm done, feel free to make more jokes at my expense, seriously

And that´s a good point: the Axxion IS finally an original design.. but it´s Mustaine´s design (that AFAIK Jackson rejected to build) and not an ESP original..

but either way, it´s finally something truly ESP... A Stabbed Poo

BTW, nice article, TGB


Originally Posted by Kacbtw (like a lot of this thread) I do not own any ESP's, but if I get a chance to get an AXXION, I'll be all over it! because AXXION is ESP's original design, made for Dave Mustaine, and it's a freakin' awesome guitar!!!

nonononono ..

you got it all wrong again.. ESP is only BUILDING the guitar.. it was designed by dave not ESP ... and it's ugly as sin .. and dave's a ******bag .. on crack .. i should sic Jurgen on him


Originally Posted by ZerberusAnd that´s a good point: the Axxion IS finally an original design.. but it´s Mustaine´s design (that AFAIK Jackson rejected to build) and not an ESP original..

Right.

Dave's King V's didn't have the string through TOM bridges that the DV8's have did they?

If jackson would have made the axxion instead of ESP I would still like it, but it would have been a USA jackson as compared to a Japanese ESP, and the price of a Japanese made ESP is more to my liking.


Originally Posted by DaveyESP is only BUILDING the guitar.. it was designed by dave not ESP...

yeah, Zerb covered that, I think that makes me like the guitar even more...Originally Posted by Daveyand it's ugly as sin..

I respect your opinion, but IMO, it's freakin' awesome!Originally Posted by Daveyand dave's a ******bag.. on crack..

That's just not very nice. I don't believe Dave Mustaine is on drugs anymore, it is harmful to his character to make statements like that, even if it is a joke. It's just not your place to say that.

NO, becasue Jackson (unlike ESP) is still capable of acquiring Kahler Hardtails... ESP has had more problems with Kahler availability than anyone else IIRC... the TOM- String through was to approximate that feel as closely as possible, at least that´s my opinion. Though Dave had been using TOM-string thru on the Y2KV for a while before that... THe KV-1 died, lost the Kahler, and became the KV-2T the second it wasn´t Mustaine´s signature axe anymore

OH, and THe KV-2T (non trem version) is VERY MUCH a string thru-body design, thank you very much

But since when are Japanese ESPs CHEAPER than USA Jacksons? This is news to me, I must be shopping at the wrong stores.... try as much as I want I´ve NEVER, ever, in the last 10 years, seen an ESP CHEAPER than an Identically speced Jackson, unless the ESP was production and the Jackson a one-off Custom.... the ESP was always 10-15% more expensive, giving me even more reason to buy USA made (It´s one thing to steal our ideas and sell them back to us... it´s a whole different ballgame if you´re passing the ideas off as your own AND charging more then the originals

ESP has a lot of original guitars as well. They just don't get so well sold in the US, that's why they're not imported there. Check out what they offer in Japan and the rest of the World.

I have to say that I'm no expert, but how is one supposed to deal with the endless amounts of superstrats? Which one is original? I bet there isn't one, and then they're always designed to improve an original fender design.

It's not as Gibson and Fender weren't ripping anyone off when they quot;designedquot; their first major guitars, IIRC.


Originally Posted by KacI went there, and I'm not coming back!

This guitar is my original design:
Feel free to steal my idea, market it, and make MILLIONS of dollars!

So is the fan PART of the guitar, or do I have to build it myself to see?


Originally Posted by ZerberusBut since when are Japanese ESPs CHEAPER than USA Jacksons? This is news to me, I must be shopping at the wrong stores.... try as much as I want I´ve NEVER, ever, in the last 10 years, seen an ESP CHEAPER than an Identically speced Jackson, unless the ESP was production and the Jackson a one-off Custom.... the ESP was always 10-15% more expensive, giving me even more reason to buy USA made (It´s one thing to steal our ideas and sell them back to us... it´s a whole different ballgame if you´re passing the ideas off as your own AND charging more then the originals

Man, I keep screwing up, I'm glad you're here to set me straight!

ok... all price aside, can you tell me more about the kahler hard tail bridge thing?

-Kac


Originally Posted by ZerberusBut since when are Japanese ESPs CHEAPER than USA Jacksons? This is news to me, I must be shopping at the wrong stores.... try as much as I want I´ve NEVER, ever, in the last 10 years, seen an ESP CHEAPER than an Identically speced Jackson, unless the ESP was production and the Jackson a one-off Custom.... the ESP was always 10-15% more expensive, giving me even more reason to buy USA made (It´s one thing to steal our ideas and sell them back to us... it´s a whole different ballgame if you´re passing the ideas off as your own AND charging more then the originals

I thought we had a discussion about this a while ago, no? I think it ended up as the Jackson having 80%-100% more price. Here. And quite a lot more in Europe altoghether as well.


Originally Posted by JohtosotkuESP has a lot of original guitars as well. They just don't get so well sold in the US, that's why they're not imported there. Check out what they offer in Japan and the rest of the World.

I have to say that I'm no expert, but how is one supposed to deal with the endless amounts of superstrats? Which one is original? I bet there isn't one, and then they're always designed to improve an original fender design.

It's not as Gibson and Fender weren't ripping anyone off when they quot;designedquot; their first major guitars, IIRC.

Just wanted to make sure Johtosotku's post didn't get lost in all the esp jackson disscussion. He's a bright guy!
Rock On


Originally Posted by KacRight.

Dave's King V's didn't have the string through TOM bridges that the DV8's have did they?

daves king V's (signature model) had a kahler bridge.. but that's beside the point
string through vs a tremolo is a universal part of the guitar.. it's the shape and design of the BODY that is copyrighted.. and the DV8 just has a scalloped 'butt' vs the kingv flat top.. that's the only big diference (apart of the headstock) beween the KV and DV8

If jackson would have made the axxion instead of ESP I would still like it, but it would have been a USA jackson as compared to a Japanese ESP, and the price of a Japanese made ESP is more to my liking.

oh you mean the 4k MSRP (equal to a jackson CUSTOM SHOP guitar)... for an import .. and the 1.1ish k for the LTD .. which is basicaly the same guitar (apart of diferent wood used) than the ESP .. made in KOREA (here you see how much you actualy pay for the name.. some goes to quality control and better wood, but a 3k diference????) ... yea.. MUCH better!! dont insult your own inteligence.

unless it's a custom shop guitar i havent seen a jackson USA being sold that much above 2k

if all of this is a joke, you played a BIG one on me

In a nutshell:

The Kahler 3100 is a Hardtail bridge, very similar to the Flat-mount mounted 23xx series cam-operated tremolos... the main difference is that unlike the 23xx there´s no trem function and IIRC no rout at alll is necessary.

The Kahler´s require the neck to be angled back like on an LP, and this of course affects the feel ot the instrument, esp. the position of the picking hand. Some liike it higher, some lower... I prefer it higher, so Kahler/ TOM/ Non-Recessed Floyd where possible


Originally Posted by Daveyif all of this is a joke, you played a BIG one on me

Not all of this is a joke, a lot of it is, and non of it was meant to be played on you, but you've become a big part of this thread, so... don't let it die!

Rock On