software

This is a thread inspired by a late night conversation I had with Gearjonser while in LA. Here's the background.

I was listening to GJ play his Goldtop with the C5 (UGD version)/59. He said that he couldn't understand how anyone could say the 59' neck was too bright, boomy, whatever. As I listened to him play, I thought to myself (and said outloud) that is ECACTLY the way I like a neck pickup to sound. So I picked up the EXACT guitar, through the EXACT same amp and settings, and guess what....the pickup sounded much boomier, darker with less sparkle and clarity....What gives?

GJ and I talked about fingersize. I don't have unusually small hands or unusually large hands. My fingers are not unusually long, fat, boney, ect. Besides, once you fret the note, isn't the relationship of the tone between the nickel fret and the pickup at that point...or is it?

Why did I love the way the 59'(n) sounded when GJ played it, and remembered why I have never been able to fall in love with it when I play it? What is it about fingers that make or break the tone?

I think picking and vibrato/hammering/pulling off/sliding have to do with it.

I'd like to know, as well. I've never liked 59's for the reason you listed, Jeff, but everyone else seems to love them.

No fingers, no tone!

Touch is a big part of it, the pick attack etc. Pick type makes a difference too. I wouldn't think finger density has much to do wioth it. Each player hits the strings and coaxes the note along differently that to me is where the tone is at.

I agree with wattage on this one. Just by playing with a different pick attack, playing closer to the neck or brigde, etc. you can shape the tone as you want. Also, the playing style has alot to do with how a piece of music or a riff sounds. That's why we can't all sound like SRV, even though with his setup and his licks

-Erlend

I remember reading Tom Anderson on the subject of different tonal combinations, and he said the most important thing is to match your guitar to the inherent tone your hands.

So much of a players' tone is in how hard he strikes the string, what angle the pick hits at, vibrato etc etc. here's an easy example:

SRV played with regular teardrop shaped picks, but used one of the blunt ends. Play your closest SRV ripoff attempt using the normal sharp end, and then play the same thing using one of the blunt ends. Now, this won't turn you into the great man, but you'll hear an appreciable change in your tone in the direction of his sound. Just one little change like that is very noticeable, and it's one of so many small details regarding hands, pick and guitar.

I think it's best to do two things:

-really listen to what your hands are doing, and work on getting what you want out of them.
-follow that up with the best pickups/guitar to suit them. Don't bust a nut trying to make something work jsut because someone else can. There are plenty of options out there, and there's something that'll work for you.

yeah, I think alot of it has to do with the size pick and pick attack.

ok....we were using the exact same kind of pick...I took it out of his ashtray, it was a perloid Fender medium. His was purple, mine was red.

Pick attack is one thing we talked about. GJ has a sharp, hard pick attack, and I know mine is softer. That could account for some of the difference. Keep the opinions comming....this is an intersting topic to me.

Yeah, try using one of those really big, hard polyurethane picks from dunlop and sweep gently over the strings, which will give you those beatiful, glassy tones you couldn't imagine! I love those for sweet chords and stuff .

(Unfortunately, with the norwegian prices, i only have one of them. A pick costs about $3 a piece here)

-Erlend

I agree with the general concensus that it all has to do with how you pick the strings. That, and the way you fret a note. I've noticed that sometimes I'll practice a solo, and it'll sound one way, but if I play it again and alter the angle my fingers are on the frets with, it sounds a tad different. However I haven't been able to manipulate my fingers EXACTLY the way I want them all the time.


Originally Posted by Hot _GritsI remember reading Tom Anderson on the subject of different tonal combinations, and he said the most important thing is to match your guitar to the inherent tone your hands.

So much of a players' tone is in how hard he strikes the string, what angle the pick hits at, vibrato etc etc. here's an easy example:

SRV played with regular teardrop shaped picks, but used one of the blunt ends. Play your closest SRV ripoff attempt using the normal sharp end, and then play the same thing using one of the blunt ends. Now, this won't turn you into the great man, but you'll hear an appreciable change in your tone in the direction of his sound. Just one little change like that is very noticeable, and it's one of so many small details regarding hands, pick and guitar.

I think it's best to do two things:

-really listen to what your hands are doing, and work on getting what you want out of them.
-follow that up with the best pickups/guitar to suit them. Don't bust a nut trying to make something work jsut because someone else can. There are plenty of options out there, and there's something that'll work for you.

1 Originally Posted by proxyI think picking and vibrato/hammering/pulling off/sliding have to do with it.

1

Interesting topic......my lowly .02 on the subject.....

Any tune played should represent a quot;balancequot; that very few have achieved...from what I can tell.....almost all of the quot;seasonedquot; players will hopefully agree.

Most of the cover tunes we play (for common quot;examplesquot; of tunes readily available for quot;dissectionquot;) require a great amount of quot;finessequot; to play live and don't particularly lend themselves to being on the quot;forgivingquot; side....

..please understand, I'm in no way implying I'm that quot;greatquot; of a player...

quot;Hotel Californiaquot; by the Eagles is probably one of the better examples...sure everyone knows the chords, but to balance the intro by even fingerpicking one string harder than the rest to make up for it's quot;dominancequot; in the passage is crucial... making sure that all the notes are well balanced in their presentation is really what separates the quot;men from the boys!quot;....

Knowing how to make sure the finer points of playing are conveyed through picking attack and quot;string domination and balancequot; is usually best achieved by playing quot;underquot; the amount of volume and or gain required to get the job done.

Another example... we play quot;Bring Me Some Waterquot; by Melissa Etheridge.....in the intro, my amp is cranked as high as it will go (for quot;cleanquot; tones) and I'm pretty much forced into using restraint and quot;underplayingquot; the passage, which translates quite well into quot;feelquot; as the slightest deviance from the utmost control would result in reaching a certain quot;volume levelquot; that, in comparison to the rest of the song, simply would not fit.....!

Learning how to play effectively without quot;overdoingquot; it seems to be one of the quot;lost artsquot; when it comes to performing......

When my other guitar player takes a solo, I naturally turn down as my job is to support and not overshadow his efforts......the same usually apllies with vocals. (We don't play to quot;show offquot;, but rather quot;backquot; the entire band as a group effort!.....We all get to shine this way!)

Learning how to control your intensity is probably the hardest single aspect of playing... but I can assure you, it does reflect how you are quot;perceivedquot; by both fellow players and those you entertain....

just my thought's.....

Jeff Seal

Jeff I think hit the nail on the head...dynamics is a huge factor.

I still want to know if finger thickness and size effects it at all.

I suppose it could just based on the fact that you would be fretting the string differently than someone with smaller hands. Remember that friend I was talking about in another thread who just bought that love rock? All this time I was thinking that he sounded slightly out of tune sometimes because of his crappy squire which probably WAS poorly intonated, but it turns out that he sounds almost the same on the very nice tokai with just a slightly warmer vibe. It's the way he frets the notes- he bends, he picks bad notes, just a whole combination of things.

Yeah, this was a great conversation we had. For the record, I favor heavy Fender picks, although many on my table were mediums.

The finger size and touch is a big factor. I've noticed that fatter fingers often give a fatter tone, even though they're behind a fret. Listen to BB King! Maybe it's the way the fatness of the finger dampens the resonance of the fretboard too. I dunno?

The right hand definitely has more to do with the equation. Since I've always obsessed over tone, and also my playing, I've come to a formula that works for me.
I really prefer Alnico 5 pickups, heavy picks, 10's on Fender, 11's on Gibson, and want an amp that is overdriven, but articulate, with great sustain, for soloing. For clean, I want extreme punch and clarity, but also nice sustain. My fingers know how to sound good with those formulas.

I never got along with A2 single coils. I never got along with Ash or Poplar very well. I tend to like EL-34 amps nowadays, and never sound good on EL-84's for some reason.

I think an important aspect of great tone is authority and feel in the playing. It's something you hear more in long time players. If I listen to a cassette of my playing as a 15 year old, I hear the same basic sound, but the tone is not the same, just because I didn't play with as much confidence or authority. I hear the same thing in drummers, especially. A strong player on a cheap drumset will often sound better than a younger player on a nicely tuned DW.

This weekend, for example.......don't take this the wrong way, but George Lynch was getting a pretty bad tone out of the rig he was plugged into, but I noticed that when he really got into his playing comfort zone, he made it sound good, just due to his attack and skill level. Stevo's also a very good guitar player, but since it was his rig, he sounded even better. It all boils down to a correlation between the player, the gear, and the feel. It's all one big equation!

The greatest fun I had was seeing about 25 players all using my amp. The players who had great tone in their hands all sounded great on it. One highlight was seeing a great blues player using a 335 on my clean channel boost. AMAZING tone!

Yikes, no one flame me for this....but I don't think it's the picking hand nearly as much as the fretting hand.

While I understand all the dynamics one can achieve by pick attack, angle, position, etc.....and while I also understand that two players placing their index finger at the 12th fret on the high quot;equot; string will produce the same note...it's much much more than that.

When I'm playing, I may use a vibrato technique that's very subtle, or a half-bend when others will use a full, or a slide up/slide down with varying amounts of pressure in order to achieve different tonalities. All of these quot;nuancesquot;, along with note choice (phrasing) and other subtleties (fingering mutes, or wide vibratos, etc.) can give a listener the impression that the guitar is a totally different guitar than they just heard someone else play.

I don't think it's the type of pick at all (ok, well almost not at all). I also daresay that I can achieve a disctinctive sound on almost any guitar, from Squier to PRS, through any amp or effects loop...and people would still know it was me. It would still sound like my playing...and hopefully have a charcter of its own that defies much of the foregone conclusions we all make regarding gear.

My two cents in this discussion goes for left-hand technique....and whatever connection to the brain makes it do whatever it does.
Dave


Originally Posted by Jeff_Hok....we were using the exact same kind of pick...I took it out of his ashtray, it was a perloid Fender medium. His was purple, mine was red.

There you have it! Purple is on the other end of the visible spectrum from red......You're hearing the difference in colors!

i cant add too much to what has been said here and much of it gets a big ol' 1 from my experience .... i think that fretting hand pressure has alot to do with it as a real strong grip on the note will transfer more string vibration and have more neck/fretboard contribution to the tone ... so guys who really dig in (like hamfisted me) get more of that component in their tone ... and obviously picking hand dynamics are an entire universe to be explored (as anyone who witnessed seymour's masterful demonstration can attest - quot;peeks!? ... we don' need no steenking peeks ) ... some things as tiny as how you hold the pick, how much of the pick tip you use, and how hard you grip the pick can make all the difference in the world ...

and yeah, B2D ... it's all about the purple

cheers
t4d

You and the wood are the only variables in the equation. Everything else is set in stone. Since the wood probably isn't changing much during the short time that you're playing, it's all you. I would tend to think it's more from your fretting hand, too. Yes, it does make a difference how and where you pick, but your fretting hand is in direct contact with the strings and guitar. But all around technique from both hands is the key.

Jeff H...who is in your Avator? Is that himself? Does anyone have a pic of him? I want to know what he looks like