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Just thinking, with so many variations of the legendary PAF, which one actually IS the closest? I've played a '59, currently use a Seth, know the deal with Antiquities, know about the the PAF amp; PAF Classic from Dimarzio as well as Gibby's 57s - which one is actually the closest? I know everyone talks about that 'sound' from that era, but there can't be that many variations (I mean in terms of how they're built) on that sound, can there?

There's no such thing as the closest, IMO. I've owned a few real paf's and every one is a little differant. Same way every Antiquity is a little differant.

The '59 strikes me as more like an early alnico 5 60's humbucker, BTW...never had one from the 50's that sounded quite like a '59. But I have had some 60's guitars with old pickups that reminded me of the '59.

The Antiquity reminds me most of the old pafs, whereas the Seth Lover is more like if you could go back to 1958 and buy one brand spanking new.

There's lots of guys making nice replicas of pafs besides Seymour, BTW. I have some made by Tom Holmes that are also superb, though the Antiquity reminds me more of the smooth, middy, slightly compressed and somehow open at the same time honk of the old pafs I've owned.

I also think the Burstbuckers in my buddy's Les Paul Historic Plaintop have alot of the old paf vibe and tone. I don't really understand why some guys put them down. The ones I've tried had a great tone and vibe that very much reminded me of the tone of the two '58 and '59 Bursts I owned back in the early 70's.

When I plugged my buddy's LP Plain Top in the first time it instantly took me right back to 1970 or so and the tone I remember my old Les Pauls having. Reminded me of the guitar on Fresh Cream!

The 57 Classics seem like a differant deal though...kind of metalic and not really the same vibe or feel as the oldies. I like the Seth alot more!

Lew

Let's not forget about the Pearly Gates.


Originally Posted by LewguitarThere's no such thing as the closest, IMO. I've owned a few real paf's and every one is a little differant. Same way every Antiquity is a little differant.

The '59 strikes me as more like an early alnico 5 60's humbucker, BTW...never had one from the 50's that sounded quite like a '59. But I have had some 60's guitars with old pickups that reminded me of the '59.

The Antiquity reminds me most of the old pafs, whereas the Seth Lover is more like if you could go back to 1958 and buy one brand spanking new.

There's lots of guys making nice replicas of pafs besides Seymour, BTW. I have some made by Tom Holmes that are also superb, though the Antiquity reminds me more of the smooth, middy, slightly compressed and somehow open at the same time honk of the old pafs I've owned.

I also think the Burstbuckers in my buddy's Les Paul Historic Plaintop have alot of the old paf vibe and tone. I don't really understand why some guys put them down. The ones I've tried had a great tone and vibe that very much reminded me of the tone of the two '58 and '59 Bursts I owned back in the early 70's.

When I plugged my buddy's LP Plain Top in the first time it instantly took me right back to 1970 or so and the tone I remember my old Les Pauls having. Reminded me of the guitar on Fresh Cream!

The 57 Classics seem like a differant deal though...kind of metalic and not really the same vibe or feel as the oldies. I like the Seth alot more!

Lew
Nicely put, Lew.

In most guitar magazine shootouts, the Antiquity usually comes in first as being closest to the '50's PAFs. But there are a ton of clones out there and as Lew said, Gibson's Burstbuckers are in the ballpark for sure.


Originally Posted by LewguitarThe 57 Classics seem like a differant deal though...kind of metalic and not really the same vibe or feel as the oldies.

Never played one of them...but I thought the Gibson 57s were thicker and creamier, especially when compared to say a DiMarzio PAF Classic which was a bit hotter. As someone who has an Epi 335 and wants to change his bridge pup cos it's often too muddy, Im interested in everyone's opinions!


Originally Posted by LewguitarI also think the Burstbuckers in my buddy's Les Paul Historic Plaintop have alot of the old paf vibe and tone. I don't really understand why some guys put them down. The ones I've tried had a great tone and vibe that very much reminded me of the tone of the two '58 and '59 Bursts I owned back in the early 70's.

The 57 Classics seem like a differant deal though...kind of metalic and not really the same vibe or feel as the oldies. I like the Seth alot more!

Lew

Agreed!

Regarding the burstbuckers (a2's), I think the problem is Gibson's quality control. The two sets that came in my R8 and R7 were wound by different people (SP and JS were the initials if I remember right), and they are (were -sold one set) real good. But I have also tried a set out of a 03R8 that was really far from being a good PAF replica. I guess Gibson's quality control is lacking, and even tho some variations are acceptable (especially when it comes to PAFs) Gibson's lack of quality managementis taking this to an extreme.

That's why I always mention the bad examples (the good ones too) when it comes to BB's. For example right now I am really having a hard time to swap the bridge BBV from my recent score, an 04 LP standard. It is a very good pickup. On the other hand, the neck pickup is most definitely not a good pickup, and has to go.

Duncan's production I think is much more consistent.

That is precisely why I cannot recommend BBs in the aftermarket. On one side you have a sure bet, whereas the other is a risky one. But in the used market getting them from folks whose evaluation the buyer trusts is another story.

That is why, I think, we observe lots and lots of extremes when it comes to evaluations about BBs.

B


Originally Posted by dr.barloThat is why, I think, we observe lots and lots of extremes when it comes to evaluations about BBs.

B

Gibson is being inconsistent like they were in the old days in hoping that they'll make some really sweet ones I guess?

Jimbojsr, I'd look at some Seths, Alnico 2 Pros, or Pearly Gates for a semi-solid, that way you'll have a nice warm A2 sound. Barlo says that the Seths have the best clarity of group so I'd give those a big looking at if I was you.

Luke

I find that for the most part, vintage wound PAF 's are pretty good. It's a matter of mating the right pickup to the right guitar. I'll stand up for the 57 Classic, I used them for years and really liked them. In a world where you can drive yourself crazy looking for minute tonal improvements, the 57's strike me as a great quot;shut up and play your guitarquot; pickup.


Originally Posted by pgambonI find that for the most part, vintage wound PAF 's are pretty good. It's a matter of mating the right pickup to the right guitar. I'll stand up for the 57 Classic, I used them for years and really liked them. In a world where you can drive yourself crazy looking for minute tonal improvements, the 57's strike me as a great quot;shut up and play your guitarquot; pickup.

The 57's are not bad pickups - I own a set myself. I think that until the alnico 2 Burstbuckers came out that the 57 Classics were the best humbuckers Gibson had produced since the mid 60's.

But there are pickups I like better and they don't have to cost you an arm and a leg. I like the Pearly Gates, A2Pros, 59B, Seth Lover and Antiquitys better.

You're right though...alot of us, myself included, should just play our guitars more and obsess over gear less. It often seems to me that the best players, or least the guys I like best, sound great no matter what they're playing.

The '57 Classics were Gibson's first attempt to get back into the PAF thing. They and the '57 aren't bad at all, it's just that the Duncan stuff is consistently better. That's why I have Seths in my SG/LP instead of the '57s.
I've tried Burstbuckers in a Gary Moore signature LP and they were nice, but I can't say I played them long enough to compare them.

I love this topic.

On the subject of Burstbuckers, I had a set of the early ones, 2 and 3 I believe, with the 2002 R8 Les Paul. They were pretty good, but I compared the Antiquity's, the Seth's, the Classic 57's, the Voodoo 59's and I came to the conclusion that the R8 needed Antiquties. They have come out before for a few months of A2P/CC, but with my new Amp, the Anti's went back in and sound better for that amp.

My latest Les Paul came with a set of BB1 and 2's in there and I do not plan on swapping them out. They sound very very good as they are right now.

A real PAF gives better cleans. A real PAF yields more articulate distortion. A real PAF makes you play better. A real PAF gets you admiring glances from the opposite sex (or the same sex if that's your thing).
A real PAF lowers blood pressure, cures bad breath, stops nicotine craving, prevents drought, cures the common cold, slows global warming, ensures the sun will rise tomorrow and tastes great while remaining less filling.
It still sounds like a$$ in my banjo, though.
On a slightly more serious note, I'll agree with Lew. Even if you were to get a pickup that had identical response to this notional benchmark PAF, you're probably not going to nail the notional benchmark PAF sound unless you put it in a 50 year old singlecut mahogany guitar with a Brazilian Rosewood fretboard, long neck tenon, oil in paper caps, etc. As they say, quot;Everything affects everythingquot;.
Note that I said quot;notional benchmark PAF soundquot;. Not only do I doubt that there's a pickup that's the closest, I question whether there is one true PAF sound to be nailed. It's kind of like nailing the quot;brown soundquot;. Are you talking VH1, Fair Warning, or 1984? Even if we agreed on VH1 as the official benchmark, if you and I were to take the same gear and dial it in for quot;that soundquot; I'd bet that we'd sound noticeably different unless we A/B'ed our tone with the recording.
I guess my point (there's a point?) is that I'd rather chase a tone in my head rather than some benchmark. The tone in my head might be a moving target but it at least helps drown out the voices. Of course, we've also established that the benchmark might not be a stationary target, either.
My other point is that there's probably more than one way to achieve that tone in your head. I definitely believe that it's possible to get the tone from VH1 without using a Frankenstrat with a tweaked PAF played into a Variac'ed Plexi.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


Originally Posted by dr.barloAgreed!

Regarding the burstbuckers (a2's), I think the problem is Gibson's quality control. The two sets that came in my R8 and R7 were wound by different people (SP and JS were the initials if I remember right), and they are (were -sold one set) real good. But I have also tried a set out of a 03R8 that was really far from being a good PAF replica. I guess Gibson's quality control is lacking, and even tho some variations are acceptable (especially when it comes to PAFs) Gibson's lack of quality managementis taking this to an extreme.

That's why I always mention the bad examples (the good ones too) when it comes to BB's. For example right now I am really having a hard time to swap the bridge BBV from my recent score, an 04 LP standard. It is a very good pickup. On the other hand, the neck pickup is most definitely not a good pickup, and has to go.

Duncan's production I think is much more consistent.

That is precisely why I cannot recommend BBs in the aftermarket. On one side you have a sure bet, whereas the other is a risky one. But in the used market getting them from folks whose evaluation the buyer trusts is another story.

That is why, I think, we observe lots and lots of extremes when it comes to evaluations about BBs.

B

B, is the initial SP or PS? the BB pros in my '04 STD has the PS initials and after swapping the mags for A2s (i don't like any pickup with A5s) and changing the pots(to 500k) and caps(to mallory 150s) they sound so good i didn't buy the SD antiquities i was planning to install.


Originally Posted by bryvincentB, is the initial SP or PS? the BB pros in my '04 STD has the PS initials and after swapping the mags for A2s (i don't like any pickup with A5s) and changing the pots(to 500k) and caps(to mallory 150s) they sound so good i didn't buy the SD antiquities i was planning to install.Well, here's the deal.. if what you did worked for you, what finer thing can happen?

On the other end of the spectrum, I tried putting A5 magnets into my Antiquities and went back to the A2's pretty quick. Had more a 59 model tone to it, probably similar to what you had in the BB Pros (which I've never tried).

There are just a bunch of really cool pups out there.

one I really want to try, not a PAF, is one of those SK pups that is humbucker, but is a single coil strat on one coil and a P90 on the other. Not sure what they'll sound like together, but I'd love to hear them sometimes.


Originally Posted by bryvincentB, is the initial SP or PS? the BB pros in my '04 STD has the PS initials and after swapping the mags for A2s (i don't like any pickup with A5s) and changing the pots(to 500k) and caps(to mallory 150s) they sound so good i didn't buy the SD antiquities i was planning to install.

It might be PS. Will be checking it tho. Will let you know.

If you like them there is not a single reason on earth to swap them. That's cool! BTW I agree with the a5 magnet, especially for the neck. I did not come across a single BBV-neck that I loved. I think A2's are way better in BB-necks.

B

This thread is killing me. Tomorrow, the UPS truck is bringing my 50th Ann. Seth A2's wound by MJ. I couldn't care less about the Musician's Friend aspect....I bought these things for tone.

I wonder if they'll sound a little bit better than regular production Seths, or if it's just in my imagination? Whaddaya guys think?


Originally Posted by GearjoneserThis thread is killing me. Tomorrow, the UPS truck is bringing my 50th Ann. Seth A2's wound by MJ. I couldn't care less about the Musician's Friend aspect....I bought these things for tone.

I wonder if they'll sound a little bit better than regular production Seths, or if it's just in my imagination? Whaddaya guys think?

If MJ wound them, they'll sound better. Everything MJ has wound for me sounds better than the stock production version. What I hear from MJ's pickups is more complexity and texture.

If you ran your thumb down the teeth of a plastic comb with teeth all the same size you'd hear a certain sound: zzzzzzzzzzz

Now picture that comb having teeth all of a differant size...you'd hear alot more than just one tone as you ran your thumb down it: zZZzzZZZzzZz.

That's what MJ's pickups sound like to me, and what I mean by more complexity and texture.

Interesting analogy Lew. Not sure there's *that* much difference in production versus Custom Shop, but I'll go with you on this one.

Lew, didn't you, or you might still, sell Fralins or someone else at some point? I'm curious how their PAF clone sounds up against some of the others mentioned here.

I think your amp has a lot to do with entire PAF mystique. Some amps take to them very very well. Others, they sound a tad harsh or brittle. In my Two Rock, you can't imagine how great they sound. In the Bad Cat I used to have, I ended up taking out the Anti's and putting in an A2P/CC combo. Same guitar, same player, different amp.

that's funny, I used the word quot;clonequot;. How do you clone a moving target? With all the variety of what they were doing back then, which pup do you clone off of?

Evan was telling us when he had a chance to play Seth's original humbucker at this past NAMM, (mind you, this was the original humbucker EVER), it sounded more like a Duncan 59 model than a Seth. Go figger.

I wonder what magnet it had in it. A5 perhaps? Maybe those of you that end up with A5 versions of that new anniversary pup will get closer to the quot;real thingquot; than you knew. Like Doc said above, I much prefer A2's in the neck.


Originally Posted by Scott_FInteresting analogy Lew. Not sure there's *that* much difference in production versus Custom Shop, but I'll go with you on this one.

Lew, didn't you, or you might still, sell Fralins or someone else at some point? I'm curious how their PAF clone sounds up against some of the others mentioned here.

I think your amp has a lot to do with entire PAF mystique. Some amps take to them very very well. Others, they sound a tad harsh or brittle. In my Two Rock, you can't imagine how great they sound. In the Bad Cat I used to have, I ended up taking out the Anti's and putting in an A2P/CC combo. Same guitar, same player, different amp.

You're right Scott. That was an extreme analogy that I used. Just trying to make a point.

I still sell and love Lindy's humbuckers but he doesn't make a real paf clone.

For one thing, all of his humbuckers use an alnico 4 magnet. Seymour says some old pafs did use alnico 4, but I don't think the tone of an alnico 4 paf is really what most people think of when they think of an old paf.

To me, the 50's paf tone is the tone of alnico 2: Clapton's tone on Fresh Cream

And the 60's tone is the tone of alnico 5: Clapton's tone on Disraeli Gears and Wheels of Fire.

Lindy's alnico 4 humbuckers are brighter and clearer than most alnico 2 humbuckers and have more mids than most alnico 5 humbuckers.

They're great pickups and when Vintage Guitar Magazine did thier Paf Shootout several years ago, Lindy's won. They beat out all of the pickups we talk about here all the time, even the Antiquitys.

But I don't have Fralin HB's in any of my guitars at the moment because I like Seymour's humbuckers a little more. Seymour's humbuckers have a more familiar and, at least to me, more pleasing, familiar and comfortable tone.

But there was a time when I thought Lindy's humbuckers were the best humbuckers on the planet. They do make a great impression...especially if you're mostly a Strat or Tele player like me who doesn't really like most neck humbuckers because they lack the clarity of a good single coil.Lew