software

OK, so imagine this:

You have 2 absolutely identical acoustic guitars. One has the best onboard pickup system available, and the other is amplified through the best external pickup available.

Which is likely to have the best tone, and why?

Well, I guess both can be good but since I heard the Mag Mic in my taylor I gotta go external. I didn't even like the expression System taylor offers as much as I like this thing... It really resonnates well since you blend both, mic and magnetic pick-ups...

That's only my personnal preference by the way...

I voted that the difference would be negligible. IMHO the sound produced depends on several factors. The guitars response, high ended or bassy, the type of onboard system will effect it to. Some onboard systems include mics with the pickups and the ability to mix. I have also heard external pickups that sound good. The whole thing comes down to taste and setup. Both work, and for the best of each I believe both can sound good.

Any other opinions?

i like the systems that blend an internal mic with a bridge piezo ... even better if you can bring them out the strap pin on a stereo cable and e.q. / blend them separately

Acoustic guitars are designed from the ground up to be acoustic. That being said I believe amplifying an Acoustic is very difficult if you intend to keep the natural sound of the guitar pure. IMHO the best systems I have heard are LR Baggs, and Fishman. Both of these systems use a combination of amplifying techniques that give the artist a lot of latitude in adjusting the siound within the instrument as well as to compensate for the differences in one room to another. Both incorporate a Piezo style pickup as well as a microphone. Each device has a seperate signal and can be adjusted indepedently to give the sound that acoustic musicians strive for. What most acoustic players are looking for is to get the sound of the guitar louder. Most systems do not do this very well. They all can make a guitar loud, but at the same time they tend to damage the natural sound of the guitar. I own 10 Acoustic guitars. Only one has a pickup in it. This guitar is a Martin D18 and I have just recently installed the Fismen Matrix system in it, and so far I am happy with it, but it still does not sound like the guitar played without any electronics. In most cases I prefer a good microphone in front of the sound hole. This can be very troublesome also, so I think these 2 designers are doing the right thing.
I just recently saw Keaolo Beamer who is a Slack Key performer. All 3 of the guitar players in the band were using very High end guitars with the LR Baggs system in it and it sounded incredibly natural. That is what I want my guitar to sound like..... Natural

I think the two would be pretty much the same... for now.... but, later on when the technolgy has changed it will be much easier to change the external system while the factory mounted system will be what you have.
I use a Sunrise and a McIntyre through a Raven blender in my Lowden. Sounds great.
roy

I re-read your ariginal post... I was making an assumption that by external you mean an aftermarket system and by internal a factory mounted system. Is that what you meant? as opposed to an external mic on a stand vs. a pickup?

The first thing I would be this:
from : localhost/www.musicyo.com/product_specs.asp?pf_id=285well in my opinion most guitars don't come with great onboard systems but the have preamps. so an external p/up and preamp is probably better

I'd go with a combination of an undersaddle pickup and a mic, with a blender. Or maybe even the above-mentioned Mag Mic combined with an undersaddle pickup. IF I could afford it. But right now I don't even have a guitar I consider worth the upgrade. I play a Washburn D12S, an affordable Chinese solid topped western.

I use Sunrise pickups in my acoustic guitars and when used with the Sunrise preamp I feel I get a tone that is more quot;acousticquot; than any under the saddle pickup. Lyle Lovitt and Richard Thompson have both said basically the same thing about the sunrise.

But I just got the full line of Duncan acoustic pickups in and will be checking those out shortly.

Looking forward to trying the Duncan Mag Mic.

I have them all in stock if anyone's looking for a Duncan, BTW.

Lew

Very interested in hearing your thoughts on the Mag Mic Lew !


Originally Posted by PUCKBOY99Very interested in hearing your thoughts on the Mag Mic Lew !

I'll be trying it in my Martin OM-28. I'm looking forward to it...Evan raves about it! Lew


Originally Posted by LewguitarI'll be trying it in my Martin OM-28. I'm looking forward to it...Evan raves about it! Lew

I really like mine, but it's doesn't have quite the responsibility yours will have. Mine's on a cheap Fender acoustic. I'd love to hear how it sounds on a good sounding guitar.

The Mag Mic is a great sounding pickup. IMO, it's the best one out there.

But here's the thing, unless you're using a really high quality, perfectly-placed microphone in front of your acoustic guitar, at best, you're going to get a mere approximation of the true sound of the instrument unamplified. All pickups add color. That's good for electric guitar. Bad for acoustic.

And that's why so many players are using fancy pre-amps and multiple source systems - to minimize the negative effect of the pickup and compensate for deficiencies in certain frequencies. But remember, at best, it's just an approximation.

That's where Mama Bear from D-TAR comes in. Mama Bear takes your guitar's signal into the digital realm where it can -- by use of a digital filter -- remove the sound the pickup. Then, it can add back in the string and body resonance of one of 16 different guitar quot;boxquot; sizes, ranging from parlors to super jumbos. So, now, you can plug in with a piezo film or piezo crystal UST, or even a magnetic pickups (or even a solid body electric with a Power Bridge), and as long as Mama Bear knows what pickup it's seeing, it can negate the additional information that pickup brings into the signal.

The other thing Mama Bear does is, is something we call 3D EQ. Most EQ is based on frequency and amplitude. Mama Bear brings in a third dimension: time. Acoustic guitar notes quot;bloomquot; over time, much more so than electric guitar notes. Mama Bear accounts for that, digitally. Which is why it works so well.

Anyway, I'm obviously prejudiced about this project, because I helped develop it and I'm a partner in D-TAR. But the fact is, it really works. Just ask anyone who's tried it. Sorry for hijacking the thread, but the fact is, neither a pickup nor an analog pre-amp is going to give you the best, most-true, acoustic sound. To do that, you need to go digital.

We've kind of talked around this and it is a bit coutner-intuitive, but when recordign live and in the studio we have found a mixture of piezos and mics really pays off, although we haven't had a lot of luck with accoustic pickups- I'm sure there are a million ways to look at this, but here's what seems to work for me:

Under saddle piezos seem to do the best job of capturing the attack, especially with lower amplitude or finger styles- Also lowest feedback risk, but often lacks body-

Small diaghram considensors tend to do the best job of adding body, usually on axis around the 12th fret, or if fingernoise is a problem, off axis below the bridge- This is middle of the road feeback territory-

Large diaghram room mic- I have only been able to make this work in the studio, although it's not an unsual concert style approach- Big ambient, non-detailed sound and extreme feedback potetial if you are talking about sound reinfocement-

So with that said, I like a mixture of all, often multitrack 3 simultaneous tracks, and almost never perform live without two of these methods at a time. It seems like every player, and sometimes, every song needs a different mix, and you have to deal with phase and leakage issues. But when you think about it, each technique brings strenghts and weaknesses that can be managed quiet well.

By the way, we've played around with body Piezzos, PZMs and already metnioned pups and had little sucess- But I do like the idea that evan mentions for live- It's the same idea that we've moved to a variaxe for many of our live accouistic sounds..lots of options, easy to set up, and no feedback possible

Something we never expected when we made Mama Bear is that it's starting to be used more and more in the studio. Steve Travato, studio musician and LA session ace, says that he no longer has to fuss with mic placement. He just plugs into Mama Bear and they hit quot;play.quot;


Originally Posted by Evan SkoppSomething we never expected when we made Mama Bear is that it's starting to be used more and more in the studio. Steve Travato, studio musician and LA session ace, says that he no longer has to fuss with mic placement. He just plugs into Mama Bear and they hit quot;play.quot;

Certainly makes sense-
I'd say 65% of enginering in the before the last 10 years was good mic and signal chain decisions-

recently i've heard recordings out of basements that matched or surpased some of the best from 10 years ago- and when I ask how they got a sound, effect, or what mics they use, the answer is starting to turn into, used x model into y plugins and I realize that much of what i used to bring to the table is now in the box-

Now I need to go play for 1/2 hour to forget that im turning into an old fuddydud


Originally Posted by Evan Skopp
Anyway, I'm obviously prejudiced about this project, because I helped develop it and I'm a partner in D-TAR. But the fact is, it really works. Just ask anyone who's tried it. Sorry for hijacking the thread, but the fact is, neither a pickup nor an analog pre-amp is going to give you the best, most-true, acoustic sound. To do that, you need to go digital.

The Mama Bear was the single most impressive item I played through at NAMM and I've ordered one from Billy Gill for myself.

If I'm as blown away by it as I was at NAMM I'll order one or two for stock.

Evan, thanks for turning me onto that item...it was great meeting you and Rick Turner.

Now I need my Ovation that I donated to a good cause back again!

I think what I'm going to do is put those Fishman piezo saddles into one of my Strats to use with the Mama Bear.

Lew