software

This is inspired by the marshall thread.
Is there any way a machine can wire an amp automatically? Like have all the components on a rack w/ clamps on each part that drops into a chassis w/ eyelet solder joints and hot irons under them or something? All these years making extremely complex products and we cant machine manufacture a simple PTP circuit....

A good idea would be to sell component boards already loaded w/ resistors and caps and wired, so all you'd need then is to bolt it onto a chassis and solder the pots and trannies and sockets.

a few things:

1) Just the fact that an amp is wired PTP does not mean it will sound good. PTP is the most labor-intensive, material-intensive, error-prone way of wiring an amp. PTP is not quot;automaticallyquot; better. In certain situations it IS better than others, but not all the time.

2) Basically what you're asking is already accomplished by PCB-based technology. If you want physical wires connecting specific points you're gonna have to bust out the soldering guns and get to work. Mesa-Boogie's amps use a combination of PTP and PCB based construction, but they do not have machines to do the PTP parts.

IMO having machines do PTP stuff kind of takes away from the whole point of the thing. If you can figure out a way to do it though, be my guest.

Probably the best way is to pay small children to do it.


Originally Posted by B2Da few things:

1) Just the fact that an amp is wired PTP does not mean it will sound good. PTP is the most labor-intensive, material-intensive, error-prone way of wiring an amp. PTP is not quot;automaticallyquot; better. In certain situations it IS better than others, but not all the time.

2) Basically what you're asking is already accomplished by PCB-based technology. If you want physical wires connecting specific points you're gonna have to bust out the soldering guns and get to work. Mesa-Boogie's amps use a combination of PTP and PCB based construction, but they do not have machines to do the PTP parts.

IMO having machines do PTP stuff kind of takes away from the whole point of the thing. If you can figure out a way to do it though, be my guest.

I would tend to agree with this completely. A well-designed PCB will outperform a sloppily done PTP.

(This comment coming from someone who's never owned either.)

Yeah i know what you mean. As long as they're the same components, the connections made are the same, but PTP is easier to repair and workn on.

But arent some PCB's really delicate? Are the new fender one's really delicate?


Originally Posted by Quencho092But arent some PCB's really delicate? Are the new fender one's really delicate?

Yeah, but that's more a matter of crappy component quality (in this case, the board itself) than something inherently wrong with PCB construction. Think of it like buffered bypass pedals: though many might be junk, it can be done right and many times offers great results.
A large part of the art of PTP amps is lead dress: arranging the wires in a way that at a minimum ensures low noise and stability and sometimes enhances the amp's harmonic complexity. That's something that would be very hard to do with a machine because it often involves moving stuff and listening to the results.

I've built two amps from scratch, hand wired, on boards with eyelets. Point to point literally involves no board. Components attached directly to each other. Difficult stuff to do correctly. The PTP acronym gets used way to often for amps that are not truly ptp. BUT, that being said, handwired is the way to go in my book. Easy component replacement and tweaks.

Circuit boards are great if done right. What is quot;rightquot;? Well, the key seems to be how close the quot;tracesquot; are to each other, how thick the board material is, and how heavy the traces are. Some amps are done right. Check out Rivera or Fuchs. Some are done painfully wrong, check out most modern Fender stuff.

Another big deal is how the tube sockets are mounted. If they are mounted directly to the circuit board, it's a heat problem. Also, tube sockets can wear out. if they are mounted directly to a board, it can be a royal PITA to swap out. The new AC30CC I picked up has tubes mounted directly to the chassis, not the boards. With all the options on that amp, circuit board was essential in getting it produced in mass and keeping the price down.

But, to answer the original quesiton, no, no way a machine, as they exist today, could hand wire an amp in mass production.


Originally Posted by Scott_FCircuit boards are great if done right. What is quot;rightquot;? Well, the key seems to be how close the quot;tracesquot; are to each other, how thick the board material is, and how heavy the traces are. Some amps are done right. Check out Rivera or Fuchs. Some are done painfully wrong, check out most modern Fender stuff.

Layout is as big a deal in PCB amps as lead dress is in non-PCB amps. Andy Fuchs has remarked that things don't sound good if you just let the PCB layout software do its thing. I also recall reading that the Soldano SLO's PCB was designed to have constructive bleed between certain traces.
It's art, man.

I used to have it in my head that circuit boards were bad. I sold a fine Rivera amp and part of the thought process was, heck this amp has circuit boards. it can't be that good.

Big mistake. Great amp. Stupid picker.

Much as I love my Two Rock, my Rivera isn't going anywhere. The only amp that could possibly displace my Rake is the Peters Dual Channel but I'd have to play one first.


Originally Posted by aleclee

I also recall reading that the Soldano SLO's PCB was designed to have constructive bleed between certain traces.
It's art, man.

Randall Smith said he did this with some of the newer Boogie's as well.

PCB is no different from any other quot;mediumquot;, if you wanna put it that way - as an engineer you've gotta know how to manipulate the materials.


Originally Posted by Quencho092....Is there any way a machine can wire an amp automatically? .....

You do understand what the term quot;handwiredquot; means, yes? Just checking

BTW, I was just looking, didn´t the THD site have a great rundown of PCB vs. PTP and such a few months ago?? I can´t seem to find it....


Originally Posted by darkshadow54321Probably the best way is to pay small children to do it.


Shame on you, thats bad!!!


Sorry, can't help it!!
Originally Posted by ZerberusBTW, I was just looking, didn´t the THD site have a great rundown of PCB vs. PTP and such a few months ago?? I can´t seem to find it....

Are you talking about this?

from : localhost/www.bogneramplification.com/Pcboard.htm


Originally Posted by B2DRandall Smith said he did this with some of the newer Boogie's as well.

PCB is no different from any other quot;mediumquot;, if you wanna put it that way - as an engineer you've gotta know how to manipulate the materials.

what was said that the PCB is adding extra filter capacitance to the power supply. while yes it does this, he is just taking a somewhat negative thing, and turning it into a positive. marketing 101.

germ