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Based on what I have learned, when you exceed $750 for any guitar you are just paying for a name or reputation, not additional quality that could not be found in other brands.
I understand that I have basically removed any new Gibson from my theory.
And this is not a criticism of anybody who spends more than that, people have any number of valid reasons why they leave rational thought behind when purchasing a guitar!
Where would you peg that figure at?
I think this applies to big name companies somewhat. Gibsons do seem somewhat overpriced to me as well as some of the higher end Fenders.
A lot of high priced guitars are superior, though. If you buy a hand made guitar by Suhr, Sadowsky, Carruthers, Tyler, etc. etc. you really are getting something better than a $750 guitar. It may not seem like its $2000 better, but they are definitely great instruments.
That said, I play for a living on old Ibanezes, Strats, etc.
Mike
Hmm, its interesting, obviously you pay for a name a bit, but i think the extra cash goes into better woods and things like that, however whether this adds up to better tone and playabliity is another question alltogether.
i'm a firm believer that there are quot;gemsquot; out there to be had at a good price, but i also can appreciate the quality of instrument building and materials used (ie Hamer)...all that being said...the tone has alot to do with the fingers.
sure Slash can sound good playing a epi special through a rogue amp and still sound pretty good...he's freakin' Slash , but put a Gibson Les Paul to his specs and a Marshall Stack and see which one sounds better?!
Somewhere between the cost of a MIM Tele and and American Tele. Add a pair of Duncans to the MIM, and its about $500. I love my MIM, and can't see why (unless I had money to burn, which I don't) I need anything pricier.
If you have ever had a guitar handmade you would know what a long tedious process it is. those guys spend quite some time putting TLC into there guitars. As far as non handmade guitars goes I wouldn't know, but I can sure tell you that most of the handmade stuff I have seen is quite nice and demands some serious $$$$
$750?? Maybe above $1500 I'd think you may have a point. If take an orginal Floyd, SD pickups, tuning keys, a decent quality body and neck you'd be getting close to $750 without even taking into account assembly, painting, and set-up. When you start looking at neck-thru construction and stuff it gets way over $1000.
I look at the websites with all of EVH's guitars. I'm kinda surprised that his signature guitars don't come with electrical tape and wire wrapped around 'em. How much were his guitars? They don't look like finely crafted instruments to me, and they serve him very well.
I bought a Fender Jimmie Vaughan Stratocaster for $579. I wanted a guitar with a name on it that I felt I could trust. I didn't trust Epiphone or at least their reputation or other brand's offerings. In my case, apparently it was $579 for the Fender reputation.
I know about the work that goes into a quot;qualityquot; hand crafted guitar. The wood and the care and all. But, there isn't very much wood in a guitar, and many guitars cost as much or more than a very nice oak or walnut dinning room table with seating for 6 people.
Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by jayKBased on what I have learned, when you exceed $750 for any guitar you are just paying for a name or reputation, not additional quality that could not be found in other brands.
I understand that I have basically removed any new Gibson from my theory.
And this is not a criticism of anybody who spends more than that, people have any number of valid reasons why they leave rational thought behind when purchasing a guitar!
Where did you arrive at this $750 figure?
How old are you and do you make a comfortable living?
When I was 16 and made $3.15 an hour for a 15 hour work week, $4 and a ride to McDonalds constituted a really good meal. Now, I choke down McDonalds quot;foodquot; if I have to.
Whether it's rational thought or not I do have a good idea of what kind of wood my guitars are made of, and where they were made as well as who made them. Moreover, I have the guitars I want.
I believe (off the top of my head) a Les Paul retailed for $236 in 1959. Adjusting for inflation (off the top of my head) it comes out to around $1700.
Originally Posted by jayKBased on what I have learned, when you exceed $750 for any guitar you are just paying for a name or reputation, not additional quality that could not be found in other brands....
I would put this number in the 1500-2000 STREET PRICE range (about 30-40% lower than the suggested retail prices form manufacturer pricelists or websites), depending on manufacturer and features.... this applies to large manufacturers... although many smaller handmakers are in a similar range as well...
Your getting extra attention to detail, often more human craftsmanship as opposed to cnc (which in itself isn´t bad, but the human sanding it afterwards makes all the difference), ofter closer scrutiny of the finished product as well, usually better or rather more quot;choicequot; components (esp. woods, I can get a piece of alder big enough for a 2-3 guitars for 5$ no sweat... but if I want alder that will make a GREAT guitar I´ll need to buy a few of those 5$ boards to find a really good chunk in one, and that time selecting costs money)...
There are quite a few other factors... and I agree that a 700-1000 dollar guitar is enough for most hobbyists.... But there are GOOD reasons that pros are usually seen with more expensive equipment, and it´s not just becasue they´re being paid to use it, because that´s not usually true unless they´re selling millions of albums... very many players that swear by their equip (such as yours truly) and would trust it with thir lives have nothing whatsoever to do with the companies outside of using their stuff and loving it
It's costing me about a grand or a little more just for all the parts for my warmoth build. And that's simply because I wanted to build something to my specs and there are no guitars available that are similar.
It really depends on the manufacturer. For example, over $800 for any gibson and you're paying for the name. If they sold them new for $800 they'd still be making a few hundred dollars profit on each.
When you get a handbuilt guitar it's a different story. Those are usually worth the extra cash.
There's no absolute answer, but the closest I can come is this...
If a guitar is more than 3 times the cost of it's parts, construction, and final packaging, it's overpriced. Figure 1/3 for the instrument itself, 1/3 profit for the guitar company, and 1/3 for the distributor/retailer. Of course, my numbers are WAY simplified, and the real numbers would be divided into more than 3rds, but you get the general idea.
When it IS overpriced, it's usually due to the supply/demand factor.
To be honest, I don't think Gibson and PRS are the big offenders. Fender's high dollar guitars seem like a big price gouge, IMO. $2800 for a strat with slightly better wood and setup than a $900 strat seems fishier than what most other companies do.
It's all about perceived value past $1500, with Fender at least.
Originally Posted by Guitar ToadI know about the work that goes into a quot;qualityquot; hand crafted guitar. The wood and the care and all. But, there isn't very much wood in a guitar, and many guitars cost as much or more than a very nice oak or walnut dinning room table with seating for 6 people.
Apples and oranges.
You're right -- it is apples and oranges. The very nice oak and walnut you see in a dining room table only has to LOOK good.
The wood in a high-end guitar has to look good AND sound good. That narrows the field of wood to choose from quite a bit for the serious luthier vs. the furniture maker, and thus makes the wood they choose more rare and therefore more expensive.
Originally Posted by ZhangliqunYou're right -- it is apples and oranges. The very nice oak and walnut you see in a dining room table only has to LOOK good.
The wood in a high-end guitar has to look good AND sound good. That narrows the field of wood to choose from quite a bit for the serious luthier vs. the furniture maker, and thus makes the wood they choose more rare and therefore more expensive.
Originally Posted by XeromusIt's costing me about a grand or a little more just for all the parts for my warmoth build. And that's simply because I wanted to build something to my specs and there are no guitars available that are similar.
It really depends on the manufacturer. For example, over $800 for any gibson and you're paying for the name. If they sold them new for $800 they'd still be making a few hundred dollars profit on each.
When you get a handbuilt guitar it's a different story. Those are usually worth the extra cash.
The use of your Warmoth as an example is flawed because you're not paying for the labor of putting it together because you are supplying that labor. The cost of labor is by far the highest cost for any business.
Sure, Gibson and others will milk their name and reputation for every penny they can get out of it, but you would too if you owned a guitar company.
Originally Posted by GearjoneserWhen it IS overpriced, it's usually due to the supply/demand factor.
...Says the guy with the Komet in his avatar...
Is that a Komet or Trainwreck or something similar? I know the color scheme, just can't put my finger on it.
My last post is to be construed as humorous, not as a negative towards Komet, Trainwreck, /13 or whatever amps or their owners.
I guess I should narrow it down and remove the boutique type manufacturers who spend umpteen hours handcrafting a guitar.
I'm really talking about quot;off the rackquot; type of product, everything up to but not including quot;custom shopquot; guitars of the usual suspects, fender, gibson, and their competitors.
I agree with the person who said that some of the high priced fender strats are a worse deal than the Gibsons, even though Gibson has more of a reputation of a price gouger. Fender is kind of shrewd in that they will put their own name on a budget priced guitar (the MIM's) whereas Gibson uses Epiphone for this range of guitar.
I have an MIM, which to me has a killer sound and feels like a pro instrument, and I paid $369 for it. This thing is butter. I have played american strats and do detect a small difference, but I mean to pay another $500 to $1000 for essentially the same thing is ridiculous for me. I would really love for somebody to show me where the extra $1,000 is between my strat and a John Mayer strat or an Yngwie Malmsteen strat. Some better wood and custom wound pickups, I mean I'm just not quot;buyingquot; it.
Originally Posted by RGN$750?? Maybe above $1500 I'd think you may have a point. If take an orginal Floyd, SD pickups, tuning keys, a decent quality body and neck you'd be getting close to $750 without even taking into account assembly, painting, and set-up. When you start looking at neck-thru construction and stuff it gets way over $1000.That's using our prices. Manufacturers don't pay anywhere near that for their parts.
Originally Posted by jayKI would really love for somebody to show me where the extra $1,000 is between my strat and a John Mayer strat or an Yngwie Malmsteen strat.
1
In this case it's even worse because you're paying and upcharge for (1) the Fender name and (2) the artist's name. It gets pretty absurd. Remember that these artists started with a stock guitar themselves and customized it to their own liking. (Yes, in some cases they collaborate with manufacturers to create something completely new.) I really like the idea of getting something stock and customizing it or putting something together that's totally custom.
I understand that I have basically removed any new Gibson from my theory.
And this is not a criticism of anybody who spends more than that, people have any number of valid reasons why they leave rational thought behind when purchasing a guitar!
Where would you peg that figure at?
I think this applies to big name companies somewhat. Gibsons do seem somewhat overpriced to me as well as some of the higher end Fenders.
A lot of high priced guitars are superior, though. If you buy a hand made guitar by Suhr, Sadowsky, Carruthers, Tyler, etc. etc. you really are getting something better than a $750 guitar. It may not seem like its $2000 better, but they are definitely great instruments.
That said, I play for a living on old Ibanezes, Strats, etc.
Mike
Hmm, its interesting, obviously you pay for a name a bit, but i think the extra cash goes into better woods and things like that, however whether this adds up to better tone and playabliity is another question alltogether.
i'm a firm believer that there are quot;gemsquot; out there to be had at a good price, but i also can appreciate the quality of instrument building and materials used (ie Hamer)...all that being said...the tone has alot to do with the fingers.
sure Slash can sound good playing a epi special through a rogue amp and still sound pretty good...he's freakin' Slash , but put a Gibson Les Paul to his specs and a Marshall Stack and see which one sounds better?!
Somewhere between the cost of a MIM Tele and and American Tele. Add a pair of Duncans to the MIM, and its about $500. I love my MIM, and can't see why (unless I had money to burn, which I don't) I need anything pricier.
If you have ever had a guitar handmade you would know what a long tedious process it is. those guys spend quite some time putting TLC into there guitars. As far as non handmade guitars goes I wouldn't know, but I can sure tell you that most of the handmade stuff I have seen is quite nice and demands some serious $$$$
$750?? Maybe above $1500 I'd think you may have a point. If take an orginal Floyd, SD pickups, tuning keys, a decent quality body and neck you'd be getting close to $750 without even taking into account assembly, painting, and set-up. When you start looking at neck-thru construction and stuff it gets way over $1000.
I look at the websites with all of EVH's guitars. I'm kinda surprised that his signature guitars don't come with electrical tape and wire wrapped around 'em. How much were his guitars? They don't look like finely crafted instruments to me, and they serve him very well.
I bought a Fender Jimmie Vaughan Stratocaster for $579. I wanted a guitar with a name on it that I felt I could trust. I didn't trust Epiphone or at least their reputation or other brand's offerings. In my case, apparently it was $579 for the Fender reputation.
I know about the work that goes into a quot;qualityquot; hand crafted guitar. The wood and the care and all. But, there isn't very much wood in a guitar, and many guitars cost as much or more than a very nice oak or walnut dinning room table with seating for 6 people.
Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by jayKBased on what I have learned, when you exceed $750 for any guitar you are just paying for a name or reputation, not additional quality that could not be found in other brands.
I understand that I have basically removed any new Gibson from my theory.
And this is not a criticism of anybody who spends more than that, people have any number of valid reasons why they leave rational thought behind when purchasing a guitar!
Where did you arrive at this $750 figure?
How old are you and do you make a comfortable living?
When I was 16 and made $3.15 an hour for a 15 hour work week, $4 and a ride to McDonalds constituted a really good meal. Now, I choke down McDonalds quot;foodquot; if I have to.
Whether it's rational thought or not I do have a good idea of what kind of wood my guitars are made of, and where they were made as well as who made them. Moreover, I have the guitars I want.
I believe (off the top of my head) a Les Paul retailed for $236 in 1959. Adjusting for inflation (off the top of my head) it comes out to around $1700.
Originally Posted by jayKBased on what I have learned, when you exceed $750 for any guitar you are just paying for a name or reputation, not additional quality that could not be found in other brands....
I would put this number in the 1500-2000 STREET PRICE range (about 30-40% lower than the suggested retail prices form manufacturer pricelists or websites), depending on manufacturer and features.... this applies to large manufacturers... although many smaller handmakers are in a similar range as well...
Your getting extra attention to detail, often more human craftsmanship as opposed to cnc (which in itself isn´t bad, but the human sanding it afterwards makes all the difference), ofter closer scrutiny of the finished product as well, usually better or rather more quot;choicequot; components (esp. woods, I can get a piece of alder big enough for a 2-3 guitars for 5$ no sweat... but if I want alder that will make a GREAT guitar I´ll need to buy a few of those 5$ boards to find a really good chunk in one, and that time selecting costs money)...
There are quite a few other factors... and I agree that a 700-1000 dollar guitar is enough for most hobbyists.... But there are GOOD reasons that pros are usually seen with more expensive equipment, and it´s not just becasue they´re being paid to use it, because that´s not usually true unless they´re selling millions of albums... very many players that swear by their equip (such as yours truly) and would trust it with thir lives have nothing whatsoever to do with the companies outside of using their stuff and loving it
It's costing me about a grand or a little more just for all the parts for my warmoth build. And that's simply because I wanted to build something to my specs and there are no guitars available that are similar.
It really depends on the manufacturer. For example, over $800 for any gibson and you're paying for the name. If they sold them new for $800 they'd still be making a few hundred dollars profit on each.
When you get a handbuilt guitar it's a different story. Those are usually worth the extra cash.
There's no absolute answer, but the closest I can come is this...
If a guitar is more than 3 times the cost of it's parts, construction, and final packaging, it's overpriced. Figure 1/3 for the instrument itself, 1/3 profit for the guitar company, and 1/3 for the distributor/retailer. Of course, my numbers are WAY simplified, and the real numbers would be divided into more than 3rds, but you get the general idea.
When it IS overpriced, it's usually due to the supply/demand factor.
To be honest, I don't think Gibson and PRS are the big offenders. Fender's high dollar guitars seem like a big price gouge, IMO. $2800 for a strat with slightly better wood and setup than a $900 strat seems fishier than what most other companies do.
It's all about perceived value past $1500, with Fender at least.
Originally Posted by Guitar ToadI know about the work that goes into a quot;qualityquot; hand crafted guitar. The wood and the care and all. But, there isn't very much wood in a guitar, and many guitars cost as much or more than a very nice oak or walnut dinning room table with seating for 6 people.
Apples and oranges.
You're right -- it is apples and oranges. The very nice oak and walnut you see in a dining room table only has to LOOK good.
The wood in a high-end guitar has to look good AND sound good. That narrows the field of wood to choose from quite a bit for the serious luthier vs. the furniture maker, and thus makes the wood they choose more rare and therefore more expensive.
Originally Posted by ZhangliqunYou're right -- it is apples and oranges. The very nice oak and walnut you see in a dining room table only has to LOOK good.
The wood in a high-end guitar has to look good AND sound good. That narrows the field of wood to choose from quite a bit for the serious luthier vs. the furniture maker, and thus makes the wood they choose more rare and therefore more expensive.
Originally Posted by XeromusIt's costing me about a grand or a little more just for all the parts for my warmoth build. And that's simply because I wanted to build something to my specs and there are no guitars available that are similar.
It really depends on the manufacturer. For example, over $800 for any gibson and you're paying for the name. If they sold them new for $800 they'd still be making a few hundred dollars profit on each.
When you get a handbuilt guitar it's a different story. Those are usually worth the extra cash.
The use of your Warmoth as an example is flawed because you're not paying for the labor of putting it together because you are supplying that labor. The cost of labor is by far the highest cost for any business.
Sure, Gibson and others will milk their name and reputation for every penny they can get out of it, but you would too if you owned a guitar company.
Originally Posted by GearjoneserWhen it IS overpriced, it's usually due to the supply/demand factor.
...Says the guy with the Komet in his avatar...
Is that a Komet or Trainwreck or something similar? I know the color scheme, just can't put my finger on it.
My last post is to be construed as humorous, not as a negative towards Komet, Trainwreck, /13 or whatever amps or their owners.
I guess I should narrow it down and remove the boutique type manufacturers who spend umpteen hours handcrafting a guitar.
I'm really talking about quot;off the rackquot; type of product, everything up to but not including quot;custom shopquot; guitars of the usual suspects, fender, gibson, and their competitors.
I agree with the person who said that some of the high priced fender strats are a worse deal than the Gibsons, even though Gibson has more of a reputation of a price gouger. Fender is kind of shrewd in that they will put their own name on a budget priced guitar (the MIM's) whereas Gibson uses Epiphone for this range of guitar.
I have an MIM, which to me has a killer sound and feels like a pro instrument, and I paid $369 for it. This thing is butter. I have played american strats and do detect a small difference, but I mean to pay another $500 to $1000 for essentially the same thing is ridiculous for me. I would really love for somebody to show me where the extra $1,000 is between my strat and a John Mayer strat or an Yngwie Malmsteen strat. Some better wood and custom wound pickups, I mean I'm just not quot;buyingquot; it.
Originally Posted by RGN$750?? Maybe above $1500 I'd think you may have a point. If take an orginal Floyd, SD pickups, tuning keys, a decent quality body and neck you'd be getting close to $750 without even taking into account assembly, painting, and set-up. When you start looking at neck-thru construction and stuff it gets way over $1000.That's using our prices. Manufacturers don't pay anywhere near that for their parts.
Originally Posted by jayKI would really love for somebody to show me where the extra $1,000 is between my strat and a John Mayer strat or an Yngwie Malmsteen strat.
1
In this case it's even worse because you're paying and upcharge for (1) the Fender name and (2) the artist's name. It gets pretty absurd. Remember that these artists started with a stock guitar themselves and customized it to their own liking. (Yes, in some cases they collaborate with manufacturers to create something completely new.) I really like the idea of getting something stock and customizing it or putting something together that's totally custom.
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