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Just thought I'd throw out a few things that some consider to be prevailing wisdom but I just don't buy into:
Tone is in the hands (TIITH)I saw Jimi Ray Halen playing through a solid state Crox practice amp and it sounded just like him even though he usually plays though a MarshaBoogner stack.

Maybe it did and maybe it didn't--that's not my point. There are two components to quot;sounding like Jimi Ray Halenquot; and that statement really has two contexts: timbre and style. There's distinctive timbre like the brown sound on VH1 or The Edge's jangly echos. There's also a distinctive style that many players demonstrate such as Santana's vibrato-less bends or Lynch's use of scales and trills.
Either timbre or style can be distinctive. The great players often have both timbre and style that is instantly recognizable. Style is definitely in the hands. To a large degree, timbre really isn't. Too often, when someone says that Jimi Ray sounded like himself even through a Crox, they're confusing style with timbre. EVH might be recognizable through a Fender Twin but the sound coming out of the speakers will have very little resemblance to the snarl on VH1. Speaking of VH1, compare the tone there to that of any Van Hagar tones. If the hands didn't change, perhaps the different gear played a part...
Another thing to consider is that if tone is really just in the hands, why are so many prominent guitar players picky about their gear? It's not all about the Benjamins because a lot of those guys don't get paid for endorsements. They must be hearing something that differentiates their gear from the stuff they don't use.

Practicing is going to make you sound betterThis is the younger brother of TIITH: If skill is the key to timbre, then practicing will improve my sound. I should stop worrying about gear and just hit the woodshed.
I'll admit that there is a glimmer of truth to this one but not the way it's expressed by most people. Being able to play semidemiquavers at 400 beats per minute isn't gonna do jack for your tone. Though I readily acknowledge the effect different players' picking technique has on timbre, that's not really where the gains are to be made.
As I put it in another thread a few weeks ago, quot;tone is really in the hands when those hands are turning knobsquot;. Critical listening to your timbre to figure out what your tone really is and practicing dialing it while playing on a variety of amps and guitars will definitely help you sound better through any rig. This type of practice won't get you playing like Yngwie but it'll keep you from sounding like doggie doo when getting up on an unfamiliar stage.

Audiences don't know good tone from bad tone and don't really careNow that I think about it, this might be another twist on TIITH. It is definitely true that folks in the audience could care less if you're playing tubes or SS amps. The fact of the matter is that the same folks aren't going to be terribly impressed by fretboard wizardry, either. What they do know is that a band either sounds good or it doesn't.
As with TIITH, there are two parts to sounding good: execution and timbre. If you don't think that folks in the audience appreciate exceptional tone, maybe you think that they don't mind nasal icepicky tone either. Gwen Groupie might not tell you how she loved your tonal balance and saturated lead tone but your tone will make it easier to get with her if it's not as annoying as Buzz Beehive's overly compressed squawk.

If you made it this far in my rant, I'm impressed but you really oughta consider getting a life. Until then, feel free to agree, disagree, or expand upon these thoughts.

how about a really bad guitar player playing through a really nice amp? it will sound bad, because the player does not have quot;itquot; in his hands.....i don't neccesarily think of a specific sound when i think tone......Hendrix is my favorite guitar player, and he played all kinds of stuff, but it didnt matter, he could make it sound like anything he wanted, cause it was all in his hands.....i don't think of tone as a specific sonic thing, more-so, as a feeling........ sure, hendrix could not have had the same specific tone to his sound if you took away the fuzz face during a particular show......but, because his sound was from his hands, i don't think the difference would matter to me


Originally Posted by flankhow about a really bad guitar player playing through a really nice amp? it will sound bad, because the player does not have quot;itquot; in his hands.

Are you saying that his timbre will be bad or his playing is bad
you don't care about timbre as a component of quot;sounding goodquot;
it's a matter of having the whole package (tone chops)
some combination of the above
none of the above
Originally Posted by flankhow about a really bad guitar player playing through a really nice amp? it will sound bad, because the player does not have quot;itquot; in his hands.....i don't neccesarily think of a specific sound when i think tone......Hendrix is my favorite guitar player, and he played all kinds of stuff, but it didnt matter, he could make it sound like anything he wanted, cause it was all in his hands.....i don't think of tone as a specific sonic thing, more-so, as a feeling........ sure, hendrix could not have had the same specific tone to his sound if you took away the fuzz face during a particular show......but, because his sound was from his hands, i don't think the difference would matter to meI think that falls back into the style vs. timbre thing (two very well picked words BTW). A bad player through a nice amp will sound bad because he has bad technique, and a really nice amp will be very transparent where technique is concerned. A nice amp will allow you to play it like an instrument, instead of just shooting noise out of the speaker. A good player will know how to get the most from ALL of his gear, not just the axe.

That said, there are many nice amps that behave this way that cover a WIDE RANGE of quot;timbresquot; so to speak. Transparency to technique and good tone are different things IMO.

I'm pretty much in agreement with the first 'myth', but of course, with everyone being different, it's not a simple, black and white matter.

TIITH:

It's not just in the hands. It's in the heart and soul. everything you are as a person contributes to what happens when you strap on your guitar hand struggle to make a noise. But looking at the points made:

Sure, EVH playing through a champ isn't gong to sound the same as EVH through his studio rig. But that's missing the point of the 'tone is in the hands' argument. I've seen too many players retain their essential character through cheap/rented/ordinary rigs too many times for it not to be true. This goes for good and bad players. I've seen Robben Ford sound great through a rented amp and a dumble, and I've seen local players sound terrible plugged into very nice gear.
The distinction between 'style' and 'timbre' is difficult terrain. The way you bend or vibrato creates a timbre, yet the reason why you do it the way you do is related to style. If Ted Nugent can plug into a young EVH's rig and still sound like himself and nothing like EVH, surely it's because his stylistic choices are creating a certain timbre that is unique to himself?

I have a friend who is an excellent player, and we can plug into the exact same gear down to pick choice, with the same settings, and then play the EXACT same material, and you can easily tell which one of us is playing. In the end, it's the hands etc.

So why are some pros incredibly picky about their tones?

-it's their vocation. plenty of time to obsess.
-They get gear free/cheap, or can afford it.

Of course, for every picky player, there's one who doesn't really care and still sounds great. how many touring pros use bog standard amps like the fender hot rod series? -why on earth would they do that, when they could get a two-rock? what are they thinking? -well, touring rental issues aside, they're happy enough. And maybe they've worked hard enough on their talent that they'll sound great through anything. Oops, in the hands again.

So why bother geeking out over gear at all? -well, because the right rig will enhance what your hands can deliver, and inspire you to play. but in the end, it's still your personal pick attack, finger wiggle, palm mute...

Okay, how about this practice malarkey:

I pretty much agree with you on this one. Running scales will do very little other than make you unafraid to play something you may have once found difficult. But really listening to your sound and phrasing will shape how you sound so much more. But I think it's less about turning knobs than it is about listening to how you shake a note etc. You can tell players who are real listeners as opposed to physical therapists. And 9 times out of ten, the listener practices in a much more organic way than the physical therapist.

myth # 3: the classic 'look down on the audience' approach.

-in broad terms, this may seem true, but the reality is more complicated. try turning up to a gig with a solid state rig and tele, set everything dry for maximum treble, and minimum warmth. now play a set, and watch the audience wince in pain. Now, they may not have an opinion about how much reverb you need, but they'll sure know their ears are hurting. This is an extreme example, but it's true. People react well to warm sounds, space and rhythm.
I noticed you didn't go near that other common internet myth:

quot;Buying Yet another PRS and/or boutique amp will make me a better playerquot;

-shame, I figure you might have some insight from hanging over at 'barristers and medical professionals'...

Your stating that tone is comprised of style and timbre but fail to recognize in part II that sounding better is the same thing.

Part III is just a mess....I've never heard anything like and have found from direct experience that it's not true in the least unless you had an audience full of guitar players.

His style was in his hands, his tone was in his gear. I hereby profess my love for aleclee's thoughts.


Originally Posted by Hot _GritsI noticed you didn't go near that other common internet myth:
quot;Buying Yet another PRS and/or boutique amp will make me a better playerquot;
-shame, I figure you might have some insight from hanging over at 'barristers and medical professionals'...

I didn't go there because I don't think that folks espouse it as anything resembling truth. Go to any of the cork sniffer forums and find me a single post that doesn't take significant spin to interpret the way you imply above.
I've read literally tens of thousands of posts on Birds amp; Moons and The Gear Page (I was a moderator on both forums and am still quot;onquot; at TGP) and the closest I've seen was that quot;the lt;insert booteek guitar brand heregt; I tried/bought was easier to play than anything else I ever playedquot;. I'll say I think I sound better with my Two Rock than with any other amp I've tried but I'm not alone there--my bandmates have commented on my sound since I got the amp. That's not to say that I'm any less sloppy but it seems that my perception isn't just a matter of rationalizing dollars spent.
BTW, if Birds amp; Moons isn't your cup o' tea, that's cool. I rarely go there myself these days. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that folks there buy their guitars as wall hangars. I've played with a number of 'em in real life and I'll tell you that there are a lot of smokin' players who can and do play the sh*t out of their expensive gear. That's not to say that they don't have their share of quot;collectorsquot; hanging out there but if you think that those doctors can't play, you're terribly mistaken.


Originally Posted by ranalliYour stating that tone is comprised of style and timbre but fail to recognize in part II that sounding better is the same thing.

I'd make the distinction between having great chops (a result of woodshedding) and a distinctive/appealing style. Also, the point I was trying to make in that section was that woodshedding doesn't really do jack for your timbre.
Practice might make you sound better but it probably isn't going to improve your timbre. It might not even give you a distinctive, let alone appealing, style. There are scores of shredders out there who have chops for days but all sound alike 'cause they're all playing the same scales or arpeggios. Woodshedding will definitely build chops but mad skills don't equate to musicality.

Originally Posted by ranalliPart III is just a mess....I've never heard anything like and have found from direct experience that it's not true in the least unless you had an audience full of guitar players.

Never heard anything like it? Guess you missed this post just today:I love buying guitar stuff and playing around with it, but I gotta be honest, I know I could play a whole gig without one effect and no one would know the difference(except me off course!).
I agree, more or less.

I really hate the whole quot;audience doesn't care what your tone is likequot; part... I was at a show on Saturday, and I would've stayed for this band Scorge, if it wasn't for the attack of bee's comming out of the speakers.


Originally Posted by alecleeAre you saying that his timbre will be bad or his playing is bad
you don't care about timbre as a component of quot;sounding goodquot;
it's a matter of having the whole package (tone chops)
some combination of the above
none of the abovelet me propose this...... lets say Jimi Hendrix and SRV were playing the same strat, with strings middle sized (jimi used fairly small, SRV huge.....so, we find a median point)...... and we put them in front of a Marshall Plexi...... im sure that they could make the same setup sound way different......and yes, your response is quot;well, thats just different styles of playingquot;.....but, wouldnt the timbre (tone) be different too?....... and that could only be a result of whats in the 2 guys hands......you understand what im saying?


Originally Posted by flanklet me propose this...... lets say Jimi Hendrix and SRV were playing the same strat, with strings middle sized (jimi used fairly small, SRV huge.....so, we find a median point)...... and we put them in front of a Marshall Plexi...... im sure that they could make the same setup sound way different......and yes, your response is quot;well, thats just different styles of playingquot;.....but, wouldnt the timbre (tone) be different too?....... and that could only be a result of whats in the 2 guys hands......you understand what im saying?

I do, if you're implying that they would dial the amps in differently.
If they were playing the same rig with the same settings, I'd expect some differences in timbre but they'd still sound like they were playing through a plexi. Of course, if they were allowed to adjust the amp's settings to their taste, that's where my quot;hands on the knobsquot; statement comes into play.
SRV might be identifiable playing through a Plexi but I'd probably argue that it's more because of his style than his timbre. If he was just playing an Em chord, it'd be pretty hard to identify him when not playing through his signature rig. OTOH, playing a simple chord with his bell-like tone would be pretty identifiable just like his playing style and singing voice.


Originally Posted by alecleeI do, if you're implying that they would dial the amps in differently.
If they were playing the same rig with the same settings, I'd expect some differences in timbre but they'd still sound like they were playing through a plexi. Of course, if they were allowed to adjust the amp's settings to their taste, that's where my quot;hands on the knobsquot; statement comes into play.
SRV might be identifiable playing through a Plexi but I'd probably argue that it's more because of his style than his timbre. If he was just playing an Em chord, it'd be pretty hard to identify him when not playing through his signature rig. OTOH, playing a simple chord with his bell-like tone would be pretty identifiable just like his playing style and singing voice.i know what your saying........but, i think even with the same settings, they would sound different, and the timbre (tone) would be somewhat different too....but, thats just my opinion, and obviously it denounces point #1.....but hey, who knows?

aleclee, I agree with you. HC is horrible for this kind of thing... they don't know what they're talking about, so they just keep saying quot;It's all in the hands, noobquot; over and over again. Style and nuance is in the hands, but the sound of the guitar is not.


Originally Posted by alecleeI didn't go there because I don't think that folks espouse it as anything resembling truth. Go to any of the cork sniffer forums and find me a single post that doesn't take significant spin to interpret the way you imply above.
I've read literally tens of thousands of posts on Birds amp; Moons and The Gear Page (I was a moderator on both forums and am still quot;onquot; at TGP) and the closest I've seen was that quot;the lt;insert booteek guitar brand heregt; I tried/bought was easier to play than anything else I ever playedquot;. I'll say I think I sound better with my Two Rock than with any other amp I've tried but I'm not alone there--my bandmates have commented on my sound since I got the amp. That's not to say that I'm any less sloppy but it seems that my perception isn't just a matter of rationalizing dollars spent.
BTW, if Birds amp; Moons isn't your cup o' tea, that's cool. I rarely go there myself these days. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that folks there buy their guitars as wall hangars. I've played with a number of 'em in real life and I'll tell you that there are a lot of smokin' players who can and do play the sh*t out of their expensive gear. That's not to say that they don't have their share of quot;collectorsquot; hanging out there but if you think that those doctors can't play, you're terribly mistaken.

File that last part of my post under 'half joking'. I'm sure there's a bunch of great players over at Bamp;M. Besides, as a PRS owner and general hoarder, there's an element of self parody there...


Originally Posted by alecleeJust thought I'd throw out a few things that some consider to be prevailing wisdom but I just don't buy into:
Tone is in the hands (TIITH)

Maybe it did and maybe it didn't--that's not my point. There are two components to quot;sounding like Jimi Ray Halenquot; and that statement really has two contexts: timbre and style. There's distinctive timbre like the brown sound on VH1 or The Edge's jangly echos. There's also a distinctive style that many players demonstrate such as Santana's vibrato-less bends or Lynch's use of scales and trills.
Either timbre or style can be distinctive. The great players often have both timbre and style that is instantly recognizable. Style is definitely in the hands. To a large degree, timbre really isn't. Too often, when someone says that Jimi Ray sounded like himself even through a Crox, they're confusing style with timbre. EVH might be recognizable through a Fender Twin but the sound coming out of the speakers will have very little resemblance to the snarl on VH1. Speaking of VH1, compare the tone there to that of any Van Hagar tones. If the hands didn't change, perhaps the different gear played a part...
Another thing to consider is that if tone is really just in the hands, why are so many prominent guitar players picky about their gear? It's not all about the Benjamins because a lot of those guys don't get paid for endorsements. They must be hearing something that differentiates their gear from the stuff they don't use.

Practicing is going to make you sound better[indent]This is the younger brother of TIITH: If skill is the key to timbre, then practicing will improve my sound. I should stop worrying about gear and just hit the woodshed.
I'll admit that there is a glimmer of truth to this one but not the way it's expressed by most people. Being able to play semidemiquavers at 400 beats per minute isn't gonna do jack for your tone. Though I readily acknowledge the effect different players' picking technique has on timbre, that's not really where the gains are to be made.
As I put it in another thread a few weeks ago, quot;tone is really in the hands when those hands are turning knobsquot;. Critical listening to your timbre to figure out what your tone really is and practicing dialing it while playing on a variety of amps and guitars will definitely help you sound better through any rig. This type of practice won't get you playing like Yngwie but it'll keep you from sounding like doggie doo when getting up on an unfamiliar stage.

Sounds like some over anyalization to me. People don't always use the words they should in the context they should. Sometimes you have to read into what they say and not take it litterally. When someone says practicing will make you sound better, I'm sure they are not talking about about tibre/tone/whatever (there are certain techniques critical to tone a good tone involving the hands though). They mean you will hit the right notes and you will sound better; if you are versed in different phrasing you can do some cool stuff. When someone says Jimmi Ray Halen sounds like Jimi Ray through that other amp, they may not be talking about timbre either. They are talking about technique. I would still understand what they were saying. I'm not trying to be a jerk...am I missing something here? I understand and agree with what you are saying. I just think that they may just be using the wrong words to describe what they are trying to say, or not using the words as you would.

I agree with most everything you said to a degree, but I think the difference in our views is in semantics, so I'll skip most of my comments save two....

quot;Practice might make you sound better but it probably isn't going to improve your timbre.quot;

If you sit around with an unplugged Strat or even an acoustic and practice, you are absolutley right... I sit IN FRONT OF my amp so that I am getting a similar sonic profile to the audience and when I practice, I hear those ice picks that tend to jump out of a Strat from time to time... The tone knob goes down a hair, and I register that in my memory! I also try to replicate my favorite tones all the time.. I will spend the necessary time before a gig usning a wireless system to ensure that my tone sounds good at the dance floor, as well as in the back where the drunkards are playing pool waiting on the groupies to get selected so they can get second draft picks.... I cant always get the exact tone I want from the audiophile, but I at least make sure it isn't bad either! I wish I could say the same for the other guitarist... He plays a Tele, so he is already off to a bad start.... (Sorry Tele enthusiasts, couldnt hold back!!! LOL!) Anyway, when we do setups and warmups, he doestn check out all positions of his guitar or what sounds are coming from the PA.. He only worries about his amp on stage... You can usually hear when he hits the switch and starts throwing ice picks...

On to the second one about the audience... This needs clarification... As a musician, I would NEVER play a gig when my tone wasnt suitable! I REFUSE TO!! My tone isnt original, but it is part of the appeal I have to the audince... So that is my feelings there... However, I DO think that most members of the audience dont know jack **** about tone or even leads... Cases in point... I went to a club with some friends about a month ago... We saw this band called quot;xxquot; ( Idecided against disclosing their name in good taste).... The talent was pretty good. They were an 80's tribute band and had excellent stage presence... Realy worked the crowd... But when the David Coverdale Look alike hit the switch for solos, it was lost in the mix... You could hear something, but couldnt feel the vibes of his emotions... This is what we call getting lost in the mix! But, he was playing through an ass load of GOOD GEAR.... I was appalled that they were wasting so much talent in this manner... Oh well... I didnt have to pay cover and was drinking free because their manager was an acquaintance of mine... So, no real loss to me, but I felt a distrubance in the world of live music preformances!!!

The second instance was on Friday the 24th of June. I went on a Road Trip to the Mississippi Coast Coliseum to check out the 9th Annual CPR fest. The headlining bands were Crossfade and Seether... The other bands were very talented and took the time to set there gear and do proper sound checks... The audience was ready to hear music, but as a musician, of course I understood this necessary step in preparations for a show... When Crossfade came on, you could tell they were a studio band... The mix wasnt right in the first place, and the one guitarist couldnt cover the many tracks he laid down in studio by his one self... Chics were showing tits, horns were being thrown, and heads were banging anyway... it was HORRIBLE sound, but they didnt care... When Seether came on, it was even worse.. I am NOT bashing anyone's talents, but they did NOT take the time to do a good setup... Still, the audience tore em up!!! In fact, the best sound they had, was the last song... Broken, and it was the guitarist and the lead singer... All the other songs were so amiss that you couldnt hear their talent... They were playing VERY well, but I had to STRAIN to hear the tones... The audience ROCKED even though they wree hearing sonic garbage!!

That is all I have to say about that... thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts...
Allen

Tone is in the hands (TIITH)

1. Tone is from the gear, style is from the soul....IMO

Practicing is going to make you sound better

1. I've met some great players who had horrible tone, and some mediocre players who've had great tone.

I figure the problem is that many guitarists don't spend enough time learning to play their amp....

Audiences don't know good tone from bad tone and don't really care

1. Audiences might not know good tone, but they sure as hell know what bad tone is.

What about when the equipment is the hands? For example, Jeff Beck or Seymour playing without a pick and playing with different parts of their fingers to vary the tone. Good post, though.


Originally Posted by screamingdaisy

Audiences don't know good tone from bad tone and don't really care

1. Audiences might not know good tone, but they sure as hell know what bad tone is.

i agree, but i'd look at it this way...... the audience can hear bad tone, but they can't hear the difference between good tone and great tone (but i'm not one who believes that there is a substantial difference between good tone and great tone, or if good and great tone even exists seperately......i think if there is a difference, its a result of the tone that a great player can make come from his hands )