software

Has anyone installed one of these nuts? Looks fairly easy.

Snowdog

I refer to it as quot;Buzz Feiten Lightquot;.. similar effect, though not as pronounced, also no tuning offsets to take into consideration...

Actual nut installation is essentially Identical to any other nut

do it! its a really cool nut.


Originally Posted by pac112do it! its a really cool nut.

Pac would know. We all know how much he loves nuts.


Originally Posted by beandipPac would know. We all know how much he loves nuts.

Whats dat suppose to mean?

I am going to be using it on a mexi-strat thats left handed but setup for right handed play. I tried a cheapo allparts nut but I got what I paid for.

Snowdog

I just installed one on a project guitar I built. It is a strat type guitar (Fender Highway-1 body, USACG short scale neck, Ducan JB Bridge and two Cool rails). It is faiirly easy to install. There is a bottom piece that fits into the nut slot. You have to file that so once it is installed it fits flush to the fingerboard. Then you just screw the top portion into that. I don't notice any huge improvement in tone or intonation but is sounds good, looks good, and functions properly. The tricky part is filing the bottom piece. You have to do a little at a time until you get it flush. Not enough and the nust is too high, too much and it won't function properly. So basically you file a little, see how it fits- then continue until it is perfect.


Originally Posted by badco33I just installed one on a project guitar I built. It is a strat type guitar (Fender Highway-1 body, USACG short scale neck, Ducan JB Bridge and two Cool rails). It is faiirly easy to install. There is a bottom piece that fits into the nut slot. You have to file that so once it is installed it fits flush to the fingerboard. Then you just screw the top portion into that. I don't notice any huge improvement in tone or intonation but is sounds good, looks good, and functions properly. The tricky part is filing the bottom piece. You have to do a little at a time until you get it flush. Not enough and the nust is too high, too much and it won't function properly. So basically you file a little, see how it fits- then continue until it is perfect.

I can´t imagine this method giving consistently good results, because the height of the frets is completely ignored, yet it´s one fo the most important variables....

I think I´d still prefer to file the individual slots... there´s a reason Pro´s don´t usually use Pre-cut nuts

Hey, I just installed one, and found that it comes with the nut slots cut to an approximate height. Once you sand the bottom piece to fit in the nut slot, you then screw the top piece on. After that, you cut the nut slot deeper for the string, giving you the action at the nut that you desire.

I, too, questioned the nut slot depth, until I read the instructions and installed it.

I installed one in my Ibanez SZ and found no problems whatsoever, and that was my 1st time installing a nut. Just take your time amp; follow the instructions exactly. Good luck!


Originally Posted by grindellHey, I just installed one, and found that it comes with the nut slots cut to an approximate height. Once you sand the bottom piece to fit in the nut slot, you then screw the top piece on. After that, you cut the nut slot deeper for the string, giving you the action at the nut that you desire.

I, too, questioned the nut slot depth, until I read the instructions and installed it.

AAAH, with the quot;aftercuttingquot; of the slots it makes sense, thanks

Why on earth would anyone want one of these?

The whole principle of nut compensation is technically flawed.

OD, have you played guitars with Feiten or Earvana????

(btw, this isn´t directed at anyone, just an general statement)

For the last 400 years or so we luthiers and the players have known that the tempered scale of a guitar is anything but exact, and there have constantly been attempts to rectify this... now there are actually 2 solutions that both work to an extent w/o massive negative effects, and yet all of my colleagues, the same ones that have been *****ing about the tempering for years are running around *****ing about how the entire idea itself is flawed..... WHAT??? Do you guys actually listen to yourselves??

Funniest thing is that most are still adamant in their refusal to even try it.... What a great way to form an opinion....

IMO it´s just my colleagues being afraid of change

I´ve tried it, there IS a difference, the main problem is that ALL stringed instruments in the band have to use feiten or you get out of tuneness again

Yes but the the whole concept of nut compensation is riddle with false assumptions, Feiten's ideas in particular are technical gibberish. Neither ASIA nor GAL appear to endorse Feiten's system, probably because these organisations are filled with people who understand the technology of the guitar, which Buzz very obviously doesn't, however good a player he is.

If you learn how to tune and intonate a guitar properly you don't experience the problems that Feiten experienced which led him to develop his system.

I've read a lot of his writings and and it's apparent that the problems he had which frustrated him were simply the result of his not understanding the restrictions of equal temperament and attempting to chase natural harmonic intervals while tuning. The guitar's intonation does present problems but modified nuts are not the solution, they only create the illusion of a solution by making the more commonly used chords more consonant with the harmonic series at the expense of others.

One of my customers has had all of his guitars quot;Feitenisedquot; but ironically he still has tuning and intonation problems.

The Feiten system only appears to work for some people because it is actually a re-invention of equal temperament, it's just that Buzz doesn't know that because he's never really understood it! If you adhere rigidly to the Feiten tuning requirements you at least end up closer to equal temperament than if you go chasing harmonic consonance all over the fingerboard.

Stephen Delft uses nut compensation as well and it's quite clear when you read his monograph on the subject that he doesn't realise that the inability to tune individual chords so that they sound quot;perfectquot; is not due to any technical flaw in the guitar's construction but simply the compromise that all equal temperament instruments make in order to be able to sound acceptably in tune in all circumstances. This was difficult for me as the guy was a major influence on me when I was younger...

A much better solution is to do what keyboard players do and accept the intonation of your chosen instrument.


Originally Posted by octavedoctor....
The Feiten system only appears to work for some people because it is actually a re-invention of equal temperament, it's just that Buzz doesn't know that because he's never really understood it! If you adhere rigidly to the Feiten tuning requirements you at least end up closer to equal temperament than if you go chasing harmonic consonance all over the fingerboard.

Have you read the Patent documents?? Its immediately clear theat is wasn´t an engineer writing them...

But the bottom line, like you stated, it works for some people as it essentially quot;re-tempersquot; the scale.... again, exactly what many of us have wanted for years... we all know thet the rule of 18ths is inherently flawed, as are all other methods, because they don´t take into account individual string tension.... there are actually frets on the board that, regardless of the key syou´re playing in, are alwaysd .1-.5 mm high or low, and Feiten´s compensation of the string length alleviates it a bit (or rather introduces the dependency of tension into the equation....)

Stephen Delft uses nut compensation as well and it's quite clear when you read his monograph on the subject that he doesn't realise that the inability to tune individual chords so that they sound quot;perfectquot; is not due to any technical flaw in the guitar's construction but simply the compromise that all equal temperament instruments make in order to be able to sound acceptably in tune in all circumstances. This was difficult for me as the guy was a major influence on me when I was younger...

I´ve heard the name, but am not familiar with his work... do you have an URL for me?

A much better solution is to do what keyboard players do and accept the intonation of your chosen instrument.

I personally would love to... but the problem is that even relative to other tempered instruments the fretted guitar and bass are off slightly... I hear it all the time in out own music, where synthesizers play a large role ... I´ve actually considered having an axe feitenized for that exact reason (though I´d probably just reverse engineer it myself from the patent documents instead of paying for another tech to do it)


Originally Posted by Zerberus
I personally would love to... but the problem is that even relative to other tempered instruments the fretted guitar and bass are off slightly... I hear it all the time in out own music, where synthesizers play a large role ... I´ve actually considered having an axe feitenized for that exact reason (though I´d probably just reverse engineer it myself from the patent documents instead of paying for another tech to do it)

Here's the URL for Stephen's Compensated nut idea. It's rather disappointing because he doesn't seem to undertstand that equal temperament is not a technical flaw of guitar construction, but a mathematical anomaly inherent in music. It's such a shame, he's a really nice guy and a talented repairer otherwise...

from : localhost/i've read the patent documents, and his other comments in the press and on his website
Originally Posted by ZerberusFeiten´s compensation of the string length alleviates it a bit (or rather introduces the dependency of tension into the equation....)

Actually, Feiten knows diddly squat about string tension. This is one of the things he has got totally wrong, especially in his assumption that the pitch increase near the nut is greater because (in his words) quot;the tension is greater at the nutquot;. This is complete rubbish.

Most of the people who ***** about Feiten are doing so from the standpoint of people who believe he has patented something that is common currency. My objection is on technical grounds alone; he has a lack of basic technical knowledge of the physics of the guitar and the history of temperament and there is simply not a single coherent technical argument in support of his ideas which are largely based on assumptions (many of which are wrong),misinterpretations, myths and half-truths which have mostly gone unchallenged because there are simply not enough people in the music business who actually have a background in the necessary sciences.
Having done extensive analysis over the last ten years of such material Feiten has allowed into the public domain I have the feeling that there is a kind of quot;accidentalquot; effect in the use of the offsets in the higher register which perhaps has a similar effect to the intonation tempering which i have used since about 1978, and this (and the fact that it is basically equal temperament) may account for some of it's apparent success, but there is nothing that would persuade me to install it on an instrument onthe basis of Buzz's explanations.

The point I was making is that if you understand what is causing the problems with the guitar's intonation then you can compensate for them without the need for Feiten's complex and technically unsound ideas. Most of the guitar's intonation problems stem from the slavish dependency on electronic tuners, the use of these to tune and - even worse - intonate the guitar, and the failure of most technicians to adequately compensate for the effect of inharmonicity and arc relief (a subject I have explained at length in another thread which unfortunately degenerated into a silly game of oneupmanship between myself and another member of this forum...)

Check out my comments on page 1 of this thread,
from : localhost//forum/s...ad.php?t=55304
but ignore the silly flamewar that it started between me and Amateur, that was over nothing...

Sure it works for some, I might equally say that neither I, nor any of my 600 or so customers a year have any need of the Feiten Temper Tuning System because we are all quite happy with our correctly intonated guitars.

If you want to try using my method and see if it works for you, PM me and I'll send you some details.

The product interests me so I am going to give it a shot despite technical objections.

Snowdog

Why not just learn to tune your guitar to equal temperament first?

You may find you don't need it then.

If you have a sensitive enough ear to feel you need Feiten then you are certainly able to dispense with electronic tuners and tune by ear.

Man that thread was the most confusing thread I have ever read in my entire life. LOL.


Originally Posted by RainmakerMan that thread was the most confusing thread I have ever read in my entire life. LOL.

Maybe now you guys understand why I prefer not to go too in depth into the theory of Instrument manufacture... there´s a reason it´s a good 6 months of the SchoolTraining

OD, I actually Did miss your point, quot;The point I was making is that if you understand what is causing the problems with the guitar's intonation then you can compensate for them without the need for Feiten's complex and technically unsound ideasquot;.... and interestingly enough, the point I was trying to make is that, while terchnically more or less BS, it does actually seem to work for many....

In a Nutshell: I think Buzz got lucky... but I do see some merit in the system....

Unfortunately, All of the tuning offsets I´ve tried to date weren´t really satisfying..... but Delft´s article is a nice read.....

But I´m always interested in learning new tricks, I´ll PM you as soon as I have an axe on the bench again (Playing /repairing unfortunately has to live with second fiddle for a while, Marketing is more impoortant at present)